Brexit

[Gill W]

Yes, I understand that Keith - it indicates to me that wanting another referendum isn't a 'Remain' thing, it's more of a wanting the best for your country thing, and it shouldn't matter whether you originally voted remain or leave.

However, I do feel that forum members won't question you about wanting another referendum because you are a Brexiter.

Whereas, for some reason, they feel free to question me.

It's currently 1.45am, and I can't sleep, as Brexit is whirling around in my head tonight.

I do hope other forum members will cut me some slack - what I said about what question should be on the referendum ( if there was one) was me just thinking out loud.

In order to keep the peace, I don't intend to say anything else about a referendum - unless there actually is one.

[johnds]

Gill

Sorry, I think the lady doth protest too much, but I'm sorry you are so agitated about this

My main point was to illustrate that it would be difficult to agree what the terms of such a referendum would be
I know it's not your decision but you are advocating it and I asked you to elucidate on
precisely what you were advocating

Your response seems to confirm the difficulties and also that you would wish to "load"
the question by removing your most feared option, which could be the most preferred option of the general public

Like it or not there are at the moment three options, stay, leave on the deal,leave on WTO
I dont see how you can remove either of the last two.
You cannot have all three under a first past the post scenario as that loads the referendum for those that want to stay by splitting he vote of the leavers.

I dont lie the deal but I do want to leave the mess that is the EU

Caroline Lucas is one of the last M.P.s I would take notice of

[Gill W]

John, I never said it'd be easy!

Content Deleted

[Gill W]

In other news
EU Court Advocate General rules that UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50. (Not binding, court judgement still awaited)

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN1O30QQ

[Manoverboard]

…. However, I do feel that forum members won't question you about wanting another referendum because you are a Brexiter.

That is simply not the case … if OL decides he wants another referendum / a people's vote then so be it, it's his choice. As a Brexiteer I will be surprised but I wont take it personally nor will I worry about it.

[towny44]

Trying to focus on the next big thing with Brexit and the vote on Dec 11th., one thing that disturbs me is the motley grouping of those intending to vote against May's agreement. They really will have no allegiance to one another as they enter the division lobbies, and yet their vote could cause us to crash out of the EU.
Furthermore do we know exactly what the backstop agreement says, and would the UK still have to pay into the EU while it is in operation? If so then May should be trying her damnedest to have this changed so that we pay nothing, in this way the EU would be just as determined to avoid it, or end it as soon as possible. If it's only the UK that suffers while the backstop is in operation then the EU have no incentive to agree a reasonable trade deal.

[Onelife]

Yes, I understand that Keith - it indicates to me that wanting another referendum isn't a 'Remain' thing, it's more of a wanting the best for your country thing, and it shouldn't matter whether you originally voted remain or leave.

However, I do feel that forum members won't question you about wanting another referendum because you are a Brexiter.

Whereas, for some reason, they feel free to question me.

It's currently 1.45am, and I can't sleep, as Brexit is whirling around in my head tonight.

I do hope other forum members will cut me some slack - what I said about what question should be on the referendum ( if there was one) was me just thinking out loud.

In order to keep the peace, I don't intend to say anything else about a referendum - unless there actually is one.

Hi Gill,

I think the last thing any of us on this forum would want is to see one of its members upset... so chin up and try not to take things to heart. There is no right or wrong on this topic it's just personal opinions expressed in different tones of forcefulness..... if l wanted to play devils advocate l would have to say you have given as good as you have got. The difference is that your voice along with Jacks etc are in the minority on this forum so it is quite understandable why you feel a little got at...l think at the end of the day one has to rely on our mods (David) to determine if anyone is overstepping the line.......l would of course expect a bit of slack in my case cos l know not what l do

Now you have a good day and remember OL loves all of the ladies on this forum...so much so that l've just dispatched you a box of keefy's finest chocolates.....enjoy!!

Keith

[Stephen]

I'll just be glad if and when it's sorted out either way, as I suspect like most of the country I'm sick to death hearing about it from whatever source.

[Quizzical Bob]

With respect Gill........If you take my post in the context it was meant then most will see that l am still a Brexiteer but in the event that Theresa doesn't get her plan through... and in the absence of any viable alternative l would be left with no other option but to cast my vote accordingly. I don't personal think it will come to a vote as l belive we will reach a deal that will leave the UK in a far worse place than we would have been had we gone along with the Chequers deal.

Regards

keith

Point of order... Chequers wasn't a deal, it was a silly proposal from a Prime Minister who had painted herself into a corner. It was never acceptable to the EU on a number of grounds and was quickly dismissed.

[towny44]

With respect Gill........If you take my post in the context it was meant then most will see that l am still a Brexiteer but in the event that Theresa doesn't get her plan through... and in the absence of any viable alternative l would be left with no other option but to cast my vote accordingly. I don't personal think it will come to a vote as l belive we will reach a deal that will leave the UK in a far worse place than we would have been had we gone along with the Chequers deal.

Regards

keith

Point of order... Chequers wasn't a deal, it was a silly proposal from a Prime Minister who had painted herself into a corner. It was never acceptable to the EU on a number of grounds and was quickly dismissed.

OK, maybe we should call it Chequers minus minus then to keep it in line with some of others.

[barney]

In other news
EU Court Advocate General rules that UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50. (Not binding, court judgement still awaited)

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN1O30QQ

Brilliant news !

Revoke article 50 unilaterally and then two days later invoke article 50 and that will give us two years to start planning for a proper, full Brexit.
Not half in and half out.
Out of the EU with full no deal plans in place across the country and within the EU.
Then and only then, start taliking about a mutually beneficial trade agreement as a genunie third country.
We can discuss the terms of full and free access to the lucrative UK market with it's 90 billion trading deficit.
Utopia and absolute certainty for business on both sides of the channel.

[Manoverboard]

It may not be brilliant news even if you want it to be as, according to the Attorney General in the House on Monday, any judgement can be appealed against and the elapse time following any such appeal ' could ' be any period up to sixteen years if past history is anything to go by.

[Gill W]

Hi Gill,

I think the last thing any of us on this forum would want is to see one of its members upset... so chin up and try not to take things to heart. There is no right or wrong on this topic it's just personal opinions expressed in different tones of forcefulness..... if l wanted to play devils advocate l would have to say you have given as good as you have got. The difference is that your voice along with Jacks etc are in the minority on this forum so it is quite understandable why you feel a little got at...l think at the end of the day one has to rely on our mods (David) to determine if anyone is overstepping the line.......l would of course expect a bit of slack in my case cos l know not what l do

Now you have a good day and remember OL loves all of the ladies on this forum...so much so that l've just dispatched you a box of keefy's finest chocolates.....enjoy!!

Keith

Thank you Keith, it's very kind of you to show empathy. Being a minority is not a comfortable place to be, but I don't think an echo chamber is healthy, that's why I've tried to keep posting.

However, Golden Princess has stopped posting and Jack appears to have abandoned ship, and I can't say I blame them, as it feels like too much bother to carry on.

We haven't heard much from Ray recently, so I hope he's making a good recovery from his illness, and nice to see QB again

However, I'm kind of done here, as I feel my voice is being taken away from me.

So goodbye for now

[Ray Scully]

THE GAMES UP for the ERG That was the only conclusion one could come to after watching Nigel Evans MP being interviewed following the passing of Dominic Grieve's Amendment. I now wonder if they will have to ditch their principles in order to prevent a vote to Remain.


Thanks, Gill feeling a lot better now.

[Onelife]

Should Theresa May not get her plan through parliament then parliament gets to squabble between themselves as to the way forward. One would presume the outcome of this will be to go back to Brussels with the intention of getting a concession on the backstop. If this is what is decided l sincerely hope Theresa May doesn't resign and leads a "cross party delegate" in pursuit of a compromise that would, l think, be acceptable to parliamen. If they return with their tails between their legs then we should all brace ourselves for what will be a very bad Norway style compromise or a chaotic exit.

[Manoverboard]

The three amendments yesterday, that the Government lost, were tabled by rebels. Now their egos have been massaged they may even condescend to vote in favour of TM's deal … maybe / maybe not .

[Mervyn and Trish]

After yesterday I predict a different outcome Moby.

Having lost those votes TM will lose the big one.

The EU will not compromise.

MPs will be left with only two choices. Leave with no deal. Or no Brexit. Most of them, despite their constituents votes, will not accept no deal.

Therefore, whether by a straight vote in Parliament or by a second referendum, there will be no Brexit.

We will then see social unrest among the more militant of those who feel their democratic wish has been defied by the elite, on a scale that will make recent events in France look like a minor playground spat.

Jeremy Corbyn and his Marxist chums will win a General Election and inflict damage on the economy far greater than any type of Brexit would have done.

The clueless Diane Abbot will be the Home Secretary who has to deal with the riots. Given Labour's recent views on the right to protest that will be interesting.

In the face of a far left government and a return to mass uncontrolled immigration we will see a rapid rise in the far right, fuelling the unrest.

Those who thought Brexit divided the nation will find what real social breakdown looks like.

In a few years the corrupt and inefficient EU, faced with rising unemployment and economic chaos, will implode and having thrown away our chance to be first in the lifeboats we will go down with the ship.

I hope those, both the extreme Brexiteers and the Remainers, who have engineered this result will pleased.

[barney]

The reason that the deal will be voted down is because it's a really really bad deal. Simple as that. May spent two years trying to get this deal instead of spending two years getting us out of the EU.

[barney]

A leader who lies to the voters has to face the consequences. Everything she has said about her agreement is bull plop.

[Onelife]

After yesterday I predict a different outcome Moby.

Not until the eleventh hour will me and Mob agree with you.

Having lost those votes TM will lose the big one.

Maybe/Maybe not


The EU will not compromise.

Tweeting one sentence is all it takes

MPs will be left with only two choices. Leave with no deal. Or no Brexit. Most of them, despite their constituents votes, will not accept no deal.

Well l would prefer a no Brexit looking at the alternatives

Therefore, whether by a straight vote in Parliament or by a second referendum, there will be no Brexit.

How much do you want to wager?


We will then see social unrest among the more militant of those who feel their democratic wish has been defied by the elite, on a scale that will make recent events in France look like a minor playground spat.

There will probably be a few protests but the more likely scenario will be that nobody ever goes to the ballot boxes again.



Jeremy Corbyn and his Marxist chums will win a General Election and inflict damage on the economy far greater than any type of Brexit would have done.

Not sure they would win but yes they would inflict damage to the economy

The clueless Diane Abbot will be the Home Secretary who has to deal with the riots. Given Labour's recent views on the right to protest that will be interesting.

Absolutely.......listening to this afternoon in parliament she was obviously reading from a script written for her not by her.....silly cow.

In the face of a far left government and a return to mass uncontrolled immigration we will see a rapid rise in the far right, fuelling the unrest.

I agree

Those who thought Brexit divided the nation will find what real social breakdown looks like.

There is already social breakdown........you must live in the posh end of the country Sir Merv

In a few years the corrupt and inefficient EU, faced with rising unemployment and economic chaos, will implode and having thrown away our chance to be first in the lifeboats we will go down with the ship.

Correct

I hope those, both the extreme Brexiteers and the Remainers, who have engineered this result will pleased.

They will survive........many won't

[Onelife]

The reason that the deal will be voted down is because it's a really really bad deal. Simple as that. May spent two years trying to get this deal instead of spending two years getting us out of the EU.

Hi Barney........what would your deal be?...how would you go about getting out of the EU?

[barney]

She handled it wrong from the beginning. We have had two years to make full preparations to leave and should have used every second to prepare the country for this. Then when officially outside begin trade talks if the EU are interested. No transition. No bribe money. Too late now because she cocked up from day one. Personally I'd still leave with no deal if necessary. Chaos for about a week and then it would sort itself out. Companies trade not governments.

[Ray Scully]

She handled it wrong from the beginning. We have had two years to make full preparations to leave and should have used every second to prepare the country for this. Then when officially outside begin trade talks if the EU are interested. No transition. No bribe money. Too late now because she cocked up from day one. Personally I'd still leave with no deal if necessary. Chaos for about a week and then it would sort itself out. Companies trade not governments.

Barney are you a betting man?
I will give you good odds on the major chaos lasting for over a year,

[towny44]

She handled it wrong from the beginning. We have had two years to make full preparations to leave and should have used every second to prepare the country for this. Then when officially outside begin trade talks if the EU are interested. No transition. No bribe money. Too late now because she cocked up from day one. Personally I'd still leave with no deal if necessary. Chaos for about a week and then it would sort itself out. Companies trade not governments.

Barney, I am as keen as you to be free of the EU, but I don't accept your assertion about only a week of chaos, mainly because without an agreement with the EU there is no way that trade would flow with anywhere near the same freedom that it does now. Just like Boris and the other hard line brexiteers you dislike the limitations of the deal, but you don't propose any workable alternative.

[Onelife]

Hi Barney,

I have to agree with John, in fact l would take it a step further and say you are deluding yourself if you think the impact of falling back on WTO terms would be an easy option.
I'll take your one week disruption prediction with a pinch of salt cos l can't believe you are being serious? We would have to join the WTO under our own right to do any trade deals, not as is the case now where we gain access under the EU umbrella. This won't be a walk in the park by any means, and will, at the very least, take many months/years of negotiations to sort out.

You seem to imply that we could just close the door on our union with the EU.....We can't......Theresa May has go a long way into negotiationing a path out of the EU which would have been the case no matter which route we had taken out of the EU......If we do fall back onto WTO terms than you can at least give her some credit for doing what Moggie and his feral pack would have had to have done if they wanted to follow moggies yellow brick road "think tank ideas.


Keith