Brexit

[Ray Scully]

Barney, what's the problem? if there is a peoples vote, surely you don't expect it to change the result of the referendum.

[barney]

If there was another referendum I suspect that the result would be very close again. Maybe remain. Maybe leave. Whatever the losing side will not accept it.

[oldbluefox]

I suspect if there was another referendum and the Remainers won they would expect the result to be honoured? And the Leavers, after the shenanigans of the past two years would accept it?
And if the Leavers won we would be back to where we are now, with a bunch of politicians only interested in themselves.

[barney]

If the losing side will not accept the result, then the next step is anarchy.

Those calling for a 'people's vote' must understand the consequences of that.
Just say remain win by 52-48%
Do they seriously expect that the 48% will just shrug their shoulders and say, oh well. never mind.
There will be massive civil unrest all across the country.
Major cities will burn.
The far right will be out in force and sweep up all the low lifes looking for a punch up in their wake.

At the moment, the UK is lucky in the fact that it doesn't have a large far right movement, unlike most other European countries.
Should Brexit not happen, for any reason, this will change in a heartbeat.
The pseudo liberals will then be wringing their hands and wondering where it all went wrong.

We are British. We do not appease, we fight fascists.

Unfortunately both the far right and Antifa are cut from the same cloth Jack.
Ultimately, they are both happy to resort to violence to further their cause.

Antifa are the anarchist group who turn up to oppose fascists without understanding that they are equally bigoted.
They are the guys dressed in black with their faces covered.
https://twitter.com/antifa_uk

[Jack Staff]

Unfortunately both the far right and Antifa are cut from the same cloth Jack.
Ultimately, they are both happy to resort to violence to further their cause.

Antifa are the anarchist group who turn up to oppose fascists without understanding that they are equally bigoted.
They are the guys dressed in black with their faces covered.
https://twitter.com/antifa_uk

More 'whataboutery' eh, Barney?

I am well aware of the Antifa. The one good thing I can say about them is they are not fascists.

This is what your Brexit is doing to our country.
You used to tell us about how wonderful things were going to be.
Now it is if we don't Brexit, there will be riots.

[barney]

Only because you and others have failed to grasp the basics of democracy Jack.

You cannot seriously expect millions of voters to accept the legitimate overthrow of a vote, just because the losing side didn't like it.

Mark my words, there will be blood on the streets and folk like you will be responsible.

[Jack Staff]

Only because you and others have failed to grasp the basics of democracy Jack.

You cannot seriously expect millions of voters to accept the legitimate overthrow of a vote, just because the losing side didn't like it.

Mark my words, there will be blood on the streets and folk like you will be responsible.

I think you will find that it will be the Brexiters who history will hold responsible.

[Manoverboard]

Only because you and others have failed to grasp the basics of democracy Jack.

You cannot seriously expect millions of voters to accept the legitimate overthrow of a vote, just because the losing side didn't like it.

Mark my words, there will be blood on the streets and folk like you will be responsible.

I think you will find that it will be the Brexiters who history will hold responsible.

17,000,000 innocent souls who did not chose to vote the way you did will not be held responsible, just the egotistical idiots who believe themselves to be more influential than they actually are.

ps … TM's Deal hasn't been voted down yet … as far as I am aware.

[Gill W]

Just before Christmas I went by coach to London, and passed the memorial plaque for the Battle of Cable Street.

It's really sad that it looks like we are going to have to fight fascism on the streets all over again.

The referendum result emboldened the far right to creep out of the woodwork. Even if there's a no deal Brexit, it's naive to think they will slink back to the holes they crept out off. The low life thugs will be spewing their hatred on the streets regardless of what happens next.

If May's deal goes through (big if) or if Brexit is stopped or delayed, there will be some idiots who will jump on the bandwagon and do a bit of rioting. However, if a no deal Brexit happens, they'll be exactly the same people who'll be out rioting if Aldi runs out of baked beans

[Gill W]

2016: There will be no downside to Brexit only a considerable upside

2019: We must must have Brexit so the fascists don't get cross

[barney]

democracy (redirected from Modern Democracy)
Also found in: Thesaurus, Legal, Financial, Encyclopedia.
de·moc·ra·cy (dĭ-mŏk′rə-sē)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

The people instructed government to to leave the EU via a legitimate vote that was called by Parliament, agreed by Parliament, and must now be enacted by Parliament.
Anything else is a betrayal of the majority.
How it happens is up to Parliament but it must happen or democracy will be dead in the UK.

I fully understand that the anti-democrats don't like it, but fortunately they have method of recourse in the next general election.
They can vote for the political party that stands on a mandate of joining the EU.
The Libdems should walk it if the remainers are correct.

[Jack Staff]

I fully understand that the anti-democrats don't like it,

Says the man who doesn't want people to have a vote.

[barney]

2016: There will be no downside to Brexit only a considerable upside

2019: We must must have Brexit so the fascists don't get cross

I'm still pretty chilled about the whole thing Gill.
I can't speak for others but I do not subscribe to Project Fear.
Deal or no deal, the UK will be fine.
We are a resilient nation.

Would you like Brexit to be a success or would you rather it be a total disaster?

[screwy]

The people have had a vote...end of.

[barney]

I fully understand that the anti-democrats don't like it,

Says the man who doesn't want people to have a vote.

We've had it !
How many do you want Jack?
Just one more?
One every week?
Every six months?
Continue until you get your way?

After May's defeat on Tuesday, she will no doubt come back again with an EU titbit and try again.
Another defeat means she will have no choice but to resign, if she has any pride.
Another Tory will take over.
There is little chance of a GE at the moment.
Then, all bets are off as it depends on who the Tories vote to be leader.

Even if there is a GE and Labour win it (doubtful), Corbyn will have to go if the UK is to remain in the EU.
He is and always has been a staunch leaver.
If you doubt that, look up his voting record in Parliament.
Although the vast majority of Labour members fancy another referendum, an undisputable fact is that 63% of Labour seats voted to leave the EU.
Labour cannot win on members alone and they need to take the North & Midlands with them.
see attached

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/anti ... leave-par/

[Gill W]

2016: There will be no downside to Brexit only a considerable upside

2019: We must must have Brexit so the fascists don't get cross

I'm still pretty chilled about the whole thing Gill.
I can't speak for others but I do not subscribe to Project Fear.
Deal or no deal, the UK will be fine.
We are a resilient nation.

Would you like Brexit to be a success or would you rather it be a total disaster?

I would rather remain - but if we must Brexit, of course I want it to be a success.

I don't WANT it to be disaster. But I do think it will be.

After all, we are in planning for disaster mitigation. Buying up fridges left right and centre for stockpiling medicines, the supermarkets are stockpiling food, trying to create a traffic jam at Manston and giving a ferry contract to a company that has no ferries. Not to mention it's planning for a self inflicted disaster. Yes, we are resilient - but we are still planning on inflicting the pain on ourselves - it seems completely mental to me.

Anyway, Barney, according to you, there's going to be a week of disruption, and then normal life resumes. Let's hope you're right, eh?

[david63]

The people have had a vote...end of.

The people had a vote and theirs was to leave the EU.

The MPs have a vote and they are voting for their own ends, be that not leaving the EU (against the will of the people) or to try and force a change of Government (totally ignoring the will of the people).

I have said it before - the current behaviour of a large number (majority?) of MPs is a disgrace.

[Jack Staff]

The people have had a vote...end of.

The people had a vote and theirs was to leave the EU.

The MPs have a vote and they are voting for their own ends, be that not leaving the EU (against the will of the people) or to try and force a change of Government (totally ignoring the will of the people).

I have said it before - the current behaviour of a large number (majority?) of MPs is a disgrace.

How do we know it is still the "will of the people"?
The last time they were asked is nearly three years ago, a lot has changed since.
We could just ask them again.

[barney]

The people have had a vote...end of.

The people had a vote and theirs was to leave the EU.

The MPs have a vote and they are voting for their own ends, be that not leaving the EU (against the will of the people) or to try and force a change of Government (totally ignoring the will of the people).

I have said it before - the current behaviour of a large number (majority?) of MPs is a disgrace.

How do we know it is still the "will of the people"?
The last time they were asked is nearly three years ago, a lot has changed since.
We could just ask them again.

Would you accept it if the result was the same ?
say
50.1% leave
49.9% remain

or would that be too close ?

Would you like Brexit to be a success or disaster ?

[Jack Staff]

Would you accept it if the result was the same ?
say
50.1% leave
49.9% remain

or would that be too close ?

Barney, you already know I will not accept us leaving the EU.

Would you like Brexit to be a success or disaster ?

In the unlikely event we leave I would like Brexit it to be a success. But what I (or you) would like has no bearing on Brexit being the complete disaster it has already proven it will be.

[oldbluefox]

has no bearing on Brexit being the complete disaster it has already proven it will be.

I hadn't realised we had already left ......................

[Jack Staff]

has no bearing on Brexit being the complete disaster it has already proven it will be.

I hadn't realised we had already left ......................

We haven't, but the number of companies, whether whole or in part have.
Also confidence, our world standing and reputation are going out the door right now.
The damage Brexit has already caused will take years to recover, even without leaving. At least Brexiters will be able to say "I told you it would get worse staying in the EU".

[oldbluefox]

At least Brexiters will be able to say "I told you it would get worse staying in the EU".

You mean like this.

[Jack Staff]

At least Brexiters will be able to say "I told you it would get worse staying in the EU".

You mean like this.

What's wrong with that?

Unfortunately the Brits are against it, so it won't happen as long as we have our veto.
With Trump doing his America first stuff, he clearly will not go against his Russian paymasters. Even to the point of his support of NATO and with Britain now cowering away behind the Channel, thinking it is still 1940. Such a shame after generations of British soldiers and airmen have done service in Europe (members of this forum even), it's as if we are saying their efforts were worthless.
So it comes to Europe to defend itself.
The only "EU Army" that is currently being planned is co-operation on things like radios and standards. The Latvians can find out not to shoot their Polish bullets at the Estonians. Seems like a perfectly sensible idea to me.
An EU army won't happen, it's purely Brexiter propaganda. But please take this opportunity to explain why it is a bad idea and how Brexit will actually help anything apart from speeding its' possible creation.

[oldbluefox]

"An EU army won't happen, it's purely Brexiter propaganda".
I presume you see Ursula von der Leyen as part of the Brexit propaganda machine? This has not come from a Brexiter and is not the first time the subject has been mooted. The intentions of the EU are very clear to those who have their eyes and their minds open.
Simply put, I don't want to be part of a European Army. Let's face it France and Germany can't pay their way to NATO so I wonder who will be putting into the European pot? What makes you think we will not be drawn into a European Army if we remain in the EU? You are short sighted and deluded if you think it will not happen, much as you hate to admit it.