Brexit

[Jack Staff]

As usual, we agree Jack.

Well, very nearly.
You may recall I was involved with getting an anti Tory Brexit vote in the 2017 election.
This was a mistake by Remain (and me) in that we campaigned solely against the Tories (because of Brexit, not on other policies).
In every seat the candidate who was most likely to win, but not a Tory was actively promoted.
One seat it was Green, others were Lib Dem, but mostly, of course, we campaigned for Labour. (Can't speak for Wales/Scotland/NI)

We were successful in that we dealt May a severe blow, but assumed that the 'opposition' would oppose. Labour is a pro EU party, evidenced by the last party conference. I have said it before but again, Brexiters only hope is Corbyn - Just about any other Labour leader, Brexit would be dead by now.

So while your 80% voted for Brexit is technically correct, reality is different. It is a shame that Corbyn still believes that vote was for him and not the pro EU vote it actually was. Luckily he is unelectable as PM, but his actions have done more damage than most PM's have ever done.

[Manoverboard]

If TM does lose the vote it seems that she can legitimately rerun it, perhaps again and again until ' she ' gets the result she requires.

You're kidding, right?

But what is the difference between the above idea and your idea to have a second referendum ...

[Ray Scully]

Greive, Soubry, Woolaston, Lammy, Kinnock …. the list is endless … all stood for election on a manifesto pledge of honouring the result.
Had they resigned the whip and stood as independents, that would have been honourable, but stand for a party with absolutely no intention of carrying out the manifesto promise is the ultimate in rank hypocrisy.

At least we can all agree on that.

Or maybe they don't want to see the country going down the plughole on the 'goodship' IDEOLOGY

[barney]

As usual, we agree Jack.

Well, very nearly.
You may recall I was involved with getting an anti Tory Brexit vote in the 2017 election.
This was a mistake by Remain (and me) in that we campaigned solely against the Tories (because of Brexit, not on other policies).
In every seat the candidate who was most likely to win, but not a Tory was actively promoted.
One seat it was Green, others were Lib Dem, but mostly, of course, we campaigned for Labour. (Can't speak for Wales/Scotland/NI)

We were successful in that we dealt May a severe blow, but assumed that the 'opposition' would oppose. Labour is a pro EU party, evidenced by the last party conference. I have said it before but again, Brexiters only hope is Corbyn - Just about any other Labour leader, Brexit would be dead by now.

So while your 80% voted for Brexit is technically correct, reality is different. It is a shame that Corbyn still believes that vote was for him and not the pro EU vote it actually was. Luckily he is unelectable as PM, but his actions have done more damage than most PM's have ever done.

I understand where you are coming from Jack, but you cannot re-write history to suit an argument.
True that the vast majority of Labour members are anti Brexit, but that doesn't get away from the fact that many millions of Labour voters are pro Brexit. *63% of Labour constituencies

Labour members alone could never get anywhere near to winning an election.
I'm sure that you would acknowledge that.

So, without the heartlands, they become a middle class, London centric play thing for Trust Fund kiddies who have too much time on their hands and are revolting against Daddy's money while sipping Chablis in the summer house. (Momentum)

You also cannot escape that fact that both McDonnell & Corbyn (and to a lesser degree Abbott) have always been anti EU.
For them to change now would be too much so they have to stick by their guns and try and ride it out.
The Tories take us out, and Labour benefit after.
Corbyn can only be outed by the members and they seem to love him.
Old Labour stalwarts can just sit on the sidelines and hope that it eventually passes, helpless in having any influence.

His interview with Marr on Sunday said it all.
Anyone hoping that old Jezza will ride in on his white horse and save the day are deluding themselves.
Make no bones about it, he wants out more that May does.

[barney]

Greive, Soubry, Woolaston, Lammy, Kinnock …. the list is endless … all stood for election on a manifesto pledge of honouring the result.
Had they resigned the whip and stood as independents, that would have been honourable, but stand for a party with absolutely no intention of carrying out the manifesto promise is the ultimate in rank hypocrisy.

At least we can all agree on that.

Or maybe they don't want to see the country going down the plughole on the 'goodship' IDEOLOGY

Oooh! they are doing their very best to make sure that happens Ray.

[oldbluefox]

Collapse of the EU.jpg

[Jack Staff]

domino.jpg

[oldbluefox]

EU going down.jpg

[barney]

What's going on ?
Cartoon trumps ?

Today is a huge day in our country history.
I know it's dangerous to make predictions but here's my best guess on how it will pan out.

The Government loses the vote by a significant amount.

May makes a blah blah speech.
Labour call for a no confidence vote which they lose.
May goes back to Brussels and pleads for a concession.
Brussels give the concession on the back stop, giving the UK the option to terminate after a given period. (Sorry Ireland)
May brings it back and it narrowly passes.
So, a deal that pleases few but is a compromise on both sides. Both save a bit of face.
Outcome - the UK is tied to the EU for years and years and years ......
Technically out ????

The LibDems and Jack Staff start a campaign to join the EU

[Gill W]

I agree up to May going back to Brussells for a concession.

But, Brussells have made it crystal clear there will be no further negotiation on the WA

May will attempt to have another vote on the same WA (funny how it's ok for them to have a second vote).

The deal still doesn't pass.

Parliament won't allow a no deal as it is too damaging to the country.

A request is made to extend Article 50 - and EU agree.

There is a public vote of some kind, whether second referendum or General Election.

Result of vote - Brexit dies.

Country still divided, rift takes a generation to heal.

[barney]

"But, Brussels have made it crystal clear there will be no further negotiation on the WA"
The EU are very well known for being negotiable, when necessary.
Their hard and fast rules seem quite flexible, especially when money is involved.
They know full well that standard WTO terms will be an absolute disaster for the EU given that Germany appears to be entering recession and if they do, other Euro countries will no doubt follow.

With reference to another referendum Gill, there is no firm evidence that a different result from the original would be achieved.
All pollls show that, given the pollsters margin for error.
The last Poll of Polls that I looked at showed 53% Remain -47% Leave
That is how it was the day before the original referendum on leaving the EU.
People now know so much more about how the EU works and how undemocratic it actually is.
The leave result could well be bigger next time.

[Jack Staff]

It matters not what the EU don't/do.
It matters not if there is another referendum.
Brexit has failed.
We (as a country) can admit we were wrong or turn into a failed state.

The EU obviously doesn't want a basket case on it's borders, but if that is what we want, so be it. They won't be blackmailed.

[barney]

It matters not what the EU don't/do.
It matters not if there is another referendum.
Brexit has failed.
We (as a country) can admit we were wrong or turn into a failed state.

The EU obviously doesn't want a basket case on it's borders, but if that is what we want, so be it. They won't be blackmailed.

How on earth can Brexit have failed when it hasn't even happened ?
Nurse ! He's out of bed again !

All that has actually happened so far is a bunch of anti-democrats, refusing to accept a legitimate vote and doing everything in their power to make sure that the vote cannot be carried through to it's conclusion.

The consequences will be laid firmly at the door of the anti-democrats.

Just imagine if it had have been a 51% - 49% to remain.
That would have been it.
A few like Farridge would have whinged on for a while on the fringes but the majority would have accepted the result and moved on with life.
Why ?
Because we are (were) a democratic country.
Things will never be the same again and it's all the fault of the anti-democrats, whether you choose to admit it or not.

[Jack Staff]

By anti-democrats I assume you mean those who want the people to have a vote?

[Kenmo1]

By anti-democrats I assume you mean those who want the people to have a vote?

The people had a vote. They voted to leave the EU.

[barney]

By anti-democrats I assume you mean those who want the people to have a vote?

Blooming heck Jack, change the record.
Was you asleep in June 2016 and missed it or just being a pedant ?

[Jack Staff]

By anti-democrats I assume you mean those who want the people to have a vote?

The people had a vote. They voted to leave the EU.

No need to shout.
If you had a vote promising everyone a free Ferrari, they would vote for it.
They would be stupid not to.
If they were then told it wasn't actually going to be a Ferrari....
Anyway we've done all this.

But still, how is allowing the people to have a vote anti-democratic?

[oldbluefox]

Which part of no do these people not understand? When the referendum was held everybody was told it was a "once in a lifetime" opportunity and "Britain will not hold a second referendum".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... m-35319146
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKCN0Y81VK

That was the basis everybody voted on and it is only because some people did not like the result they have done everything in their power to disrupt it. A second referendum will resolve nothing.

[Jack Staff]

Which part of no do these people not understand? When the referendum was held everybody was told it was a "once in a lifetime" opportunity and "Britain will not hold a second referendum".

Everybody was told there would be £350m for the NHS!

That was the basis everybody voted on and it is only because some people did not like the result they have done everything in their power to disrupt it. A second referendum will resolve nothing.

Truth be known, I agree.
Parliament must simply have a vote to rescind Article 50. The only way to stop this debacle.
Also another vote to make referendums in this country illegal.

[oldbluefox]

Which part of no do these people not understand? When the referendum was held everybody was told it was a "once in a lifetime" opportunity and "Britain will not hold a second referendum".

Everybody was told there would be £350m for the NHS!

.........and the economy would immediately crash if we voted out. But good news.......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44495598

(Actually the quotes I have given were not part of campaigning claims but what we were told before the referendum so your mention of money for the NHS is really out of context).

That was the basis everybody voted on and it is only because some people did not like the result they have done everything in their power to disrupt it. A second referendum will resolve nothing.

Truth be known, I agree.
Parliament must simply have a vote to rescind Article 50. The only way to stop this debacle.
Also another vote to make referendums in this country illegal.

Any steps the government takes to get a good deal from Brexit gets my vote. The deal currently on off satisfies nobody and deserves to be turned down.
I have no problem with referenda. If the Scots or Welsh or whoever want a referendum, for example, to leave the UK they should be allowed to have one and the result should be honoured although it should be qualified by, for example, 60% to be enacted, which would avoid the problem we currently have.

[barney]

Which part of no do these people not understand? When the referendum was held everybody was told it was a "once in a lifetime" opportunity and "Britain will not hold a second referendum".

Everybody was told there would be £350m for the NHS!

That was the basis everybody voted on and it is only because some people did not like the result they have done everything in their power to disrupt it. A second referendum will resolve nothing.

Truth be known, I agree.
Parliament must simply have a vote to rescind Article 50. The only way to stop this debacle.
Also another vote to make referendums in this country illegal.

The absolute anti-democrat remark.
Don't like the result ?
No problem, we'll just ignore it.

The plebs shouldn't be given a vote again, on anything.
Us clever people will run everything, because after all, we've done a great job up until now.

All across Europe, everything is wonderful.
Yellow Vests - arh! just ignore them
AFD - they'll go away
National Rally - well even Jupiter is preferable to them
Youth unemployment in the Med - they'll get over it
Migrant crisis - what crisis, we'll all take our fair share
Greek and Italian financial crisis - just ignore it

Of course, none of this is anything to do with the EU.
They are wonderful

Watch May's European Parliament Elections.
UKIP will look like lapdogs compared to some of the eastern Europeans that are standing.

Hang on to your hat Jack and be glad that we will be out of that circus.

[Jack Staff]

Hang on to your hat Jack and be glad that we will be out of that circus.

The odds of us leaving 29th March have hit 18%.

[Jack Staff]

All across Europe, everything is wonderful.
Yellow Vests - arh! just ignore them
AFD - they'll go away
National Rally - well even Jupiter is preferable to them
Youth unemployment in the Med - they'll get over it
Migrant crisis - what crisis, we'll all take our fair share
Greek and Italian financial crisis - just ignore it

Watch May's European Parliament Elections.
UKIP will look like lapdogs compared to some of the eastern Europeans that are standing.

So your solution is to appease the fascists and runaway.

Sorry Barney, that is not the British way.

[Gill W]

The EU are very well known for being negotiable, when necessary.
Their hard and fast rules seem quite flexible, especially when money is involved.
They know full well that standard WTO terms will be an absolute disaster for the EU given that Germany appears to be entering recession and if they do, other Euro countries will no doubt follow.

They've been adamant since November, that there's no further negotiations. I realise that it feels better to believe they will change their stance, but the changes of this are negligible. They'd look bigger idiots than us if they suddenly did an about turn.

If WTO terms is a disaster for the EU, then it follows that you acknowledge that WTO terms only are an even bigger disaster for us, as we are the ones that are walking away from the huge trading block of the EU, with nothing agreed (not to mention all the other agreements and memberships we're ripping up). No advanced economy trades on WTO terms alone. If it was really that good, everyone would be doing it.

With reference to another referendum Gill, there is no firm evidence that a different result from the original would be achieved.
All pollls show that, given the pollsters margin for error.
The last Poll of Polls that I looked at showed 53% Remain -47% Leave
That is how it was the day before the original referendum on leaving the EU.
People now know so much more about how the EU works and how undemocratic it actually is.
The leave result could well be bigger next time.

People have seen the absolute chaos that has unfolded in the last two and a half years and have seen that we are in contingency planning for a disaster.

Maybe they don't want that. Maybe after all that, 'the people' want to stay. We'll never know unless they are asked - but the thought of asking seems to make some people angry. It seems, in the minds of some, including people on this forum, that Willo The People was frozen in 2016, and can never change with events as they unfold.

[oldbluefox]

All across Europe, everything is wonderful.
Yellow Vests - arh! just ignore them
AFD - they'll go away
National Rally - well even Jupiter is preferable to them
Youth unemployment in the Med - they'll get over it
Migrant crisis - what crisis, we'll all take our fair share
Greek and Italian financial crisis - just ignore it

Do I want my money to go on sorting out Europe's problems when we have problems of our own?
The sooner we get out of this failed social experiment the better.

I'd rather my money went on the NHS!!!!