So in the event of a second referendum there would be a third, fourth, fifth and so on in order to preserve everybody's "democratic rights"? What a strange view of democracy you have. I presume you really mean that we have referenda until you get the result you want. How very EU.
You can presume what you like.
If you had read my posts (you can go back and see) I am not in favour of a second referendum. I was not in favour of the first.
But supposedly it was the will of the people to have one.
So if it is the will of the people to have second, so be it.
We elect Parliament to take these difficult decisions for us. They should take the welfare of the country into consideration and revoke Article 50 now.
But they are too busy fighting their party political battles for that at the expense of our future.
As they can't do it themselves, they should put the vote to the people.
Why are you so scared of another referendum?
(OBF and myself know which refs we are talking about, we don't need input from others on what number we are on)
So what would be the options on your imaginary second referendum Jack?
Leave or remain.
You can't have more.
No deal should be taken off the table as is widely agreed outside of ERG an other enthusiasts of Brexit.
But possibly a sub set of, if leave, deal or no deal, but that's up to the quitters.
If you have the three options then the Brexiters will say 'deal' splits their vote.
I don't actually care, as long as Remain is there the quitters can have what they want.
I understand how Jack feels.
I’ve yet to see a simple, straightforward response telling me how Brexit will improve the day to day life of the average person.
What I have seen is lengthy chunks of idealology with links to densely written articles. All of which make you lose the will to live and leave you none the wiser regarding a simple, straightforward question.
I’ve yet to see a simple, straightforward response telling me how Brexit will improve the day to day life of the average person.
And you never will because, basically, nobody knows - anymore than they know that staying in the EU will "mprove the day to day life of the average person".
Nobody, despite all the predictions, has the first clue as to whether staying or leaving will, in the long term, be better for the UK - and there will never be any way to know this as there is no benchmark. We cannot run the country/economy in parallel in order to see which is the best way forward. And all of that is without taking the world economy into account.
The one aspect that we ' could assume ' however relates to ' immigration controls ' and NO I am not a Zenowoosher.
The EU may in years to come admit Turkey and I did hear on t'telle that Egypt is also a contender, I truly have nothing against either culture but both of these Countries have dodgy borders which could encourage a mass exodus of unsavoury types from African and Middle Eastern parts.
I’ve yet to see a simple, straightforward response telling me how Brexit will improve the day to day life of the average person.
And you never will because, basically, nobody knows - anymore than they know that staying in the EU will "mprove the day to day life of the average person".
Nobody, despite all the predictions, has the first clue as to whether staying or leaving will, in the long term, be better for the UK - and there will never be any way to know this as there is no benchmark. We cannot run the country/economy in parallel in order to see which is the best way forward. And all of that is without taking the world economy into account.
Whilst your's is the voice of reason and commonsense David, I doubt it will satisfy the remainers on here who steadfastly believe that all that is currently good about the UK economy stems from membership of the EU. To them UK plc could not have provided this on its own, whilst the leavers on here believe that on our own we can continue to be just as successful as before.
As you say only time will tell and even then there is no way to measure it against what might have been.
We’ve seen a lot on here, and outside this forum, about how Brexit is going to/is already destroying our country.
I’d like to put forward an alternative hypothesis.
Brexit, or the prospect of it, is not the cause of damage to this country. It is the result.
A few posts above, Gill gave a good example of how the economic downturn damaged her financial position, and that was long before Brexit. Mine was also damaged. Not in quite the same way, but the government response to a crisis caused in most part by spending beyond our means at both national and personal level hit me hard. My only capital loss was the slump in my bank shares, by about £3,000 in value. My bigger loss was that to rescue those who’d spent, spent, spent, interest rates were slashed, hitting those like me who’d saved, saved, saved. My income has been reduced by around £5k per year ever since – about £50k in total.
And that is just one of the divisions in society that has arisen over the years. Me paying out for someone else’s cock up.
A long way prior to Brexit this country was riven by divisions. Rich versus poor. North versus south. Employed versus unemployed. Right versus left. Bosses versus unions. Rural versus urban. Country versus country. The desire for devolution in Wales and Scotland, and the granting of a degree of self-governance to both long pre-dated Brexit. It’s something the English still don’t have.
Then there is male versus female. Straight versus gay. Christian versus Muslim. And all the other “isms”.
A big one, racism. Whether that is the straightforward black versus brown versus white or the more subtle long-established population of all colours, ethnicities and creeds versus the recent immigrants, also of a range of the above. Importantly in this discussion, they are a group actively encouraged by recent governments and perceived, rightly or wrongly, to have preferential treatment in jobs, housing, schooling.
My family apparently came over with the Normans, so I’m an immigrant, even if we’ve been here a while. But there are real examples of tensions which go far beyond racism or xenophobia.
Years ago my daughter, living away from home, was victim of an abusive relationship. She escaped to sleep on a friend’s sofa. When she went to the local authority seeking help with accommodation she was told no chance. She was actually told it would have been different if she’d been an ethnic minority and ideally pregnant. She ended up abandoning her job and friends to move back home to us. That is not the fault of the immigrant population – it is the fault of the authorities.
And Brexit is also the fault of the authorities. Notably the successive governments who, sitting in their ivory towers or Islington bistros, have not just ignored these tensions, but stoked them.
Remember Gordon Brown and his bigot comment about a woman who did no more than point out the problems to him? Remember Tony Blair failing to take up the option of a brake on immigration from the newly joined Eastern European states and, instead of encouraging integration, pursuing multiculturalism? Remember David Cameron offering the referendum to head off UKIP, instead of considering for a moment the issues that were fuelling the rise of the far right?
So given the chance we voted to ditch the EU. Partly I suspect because we blame them for the above ills. How often when something daft was blamed on the EU did our home government stand up and say, actually no it’s our fault? Never. So the EU is fall guy for the daft things it did, of which there are plenty, and the daft things it didn’t.
Partly too we voted to put two fingers up at the established parties who utterly failed to see the divisions in society, because it was not in their back yard.
And partly we voted on the existing divided lines. People unaffected by the divisions, or benefitting from them, probably voted to stay. Those worst affected voted to leave, as a way out and to get their voice finally heard. That’s of course a crude analysis. But I reckon for many it’s close to the truth.
So that’s a very long way to say I don’t believe our divisions are the result of Brexit. They are, over many years, the cause.
So what now?
I don’t want to see a no deal Brexit. It will help few and will make the gulf in the various schisms deeper.
I don’t want to see Brexit cancelled either. That will only add to the frustrations and make things worse. The haves will have more. The have nots will have less. And there will be huge resentment for decades.
I actually believe a decent negotiated deal will begin the healing. It won’t fully satisfy the hard Brexiteers, or the hard Remainers, but British politics has almost always been about the middle ground. That is where the answer lies.
We need to time limit the backstop so we don’t get trapped half in and half out at the whim of the EU. We can’t have Corbyn’s Customs Union because that would do the same.
But if we get it right, it might be a bit bumpy for a time, but if the politicians take this whole thing as a lesson we can begin the long overdue healing process. And we could end up with a better country for it.
Good post Merv an hits the nail well and truly on the head.
I've said many a time, that things may get better or they may get worse, but at least we can blame our own politicians and ………………………………... vote them out if they are not doing their job.
I think your alternative hypothesis covers most of the reasons why we are where we are today, however, disillusionment is not just restricted to the way successive governments have failed to address the inequality gaps of the UK ....Brexit, in my opinion can be attributed to a nations feeling of loss of, it's IDENTITY, loss of values and it's loss of direction much of which is controlled by, and the result of EU legislation.
We have a mountain to climb to put back in place the respect this country once had in its self....Brexit could be the catalyst from which this process starts...We shouldn't fear it we should embrace it and move forward acknowledging the mistakes of the past.
We shouldn't fear it Keith, but project fear is still trying very hard.
taken from today's Guardian
If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, both fall back on the World Trade Organization’s most favoured nation tariffs, which means import duties on everyday food items from fruit to cheese.
This would mean a 42% tariff on imported cheddar, 46% on imported mozzarella, 40% on imported beef, 21% on imported tomatoes and 15.5% on imported apples, the BRC said.
Surely this must be a great opportunity for UK farmers and growers to corner the market in produce that we can grow here.
I fully appreciate that there are things that our climate doesn't allow us to grow, but we won't die from having a shortage of Lollo Rosso.
Very interesting listening to the Australian Ambassador on Sky this morning. He stated that Britain should have nothing to fear from Brexit regarding trade deals,Australia currently has free trade deals and would expect the uk to make the same globally.
Very interesting listening to the Australian Ambassador on Sky this morning. He stated that Britain should have nothing to fear from Brexit regarding trade deals,Australia currently has free trade deals and would expect the uk to make the same globally.
Yeah! I saw that too Screwy.
I also know that Australia and the USA concluded a trade deal in 18 months and would have been quicker except for a sticking point on sugar, which was eventually resolved.
It shows what can be done when one partner isn't trying to have the other side over.
The EU doesn't want an easy deal because they want the UK (and our money) to stay.
They are also putting out a marker for any other country who thinks about it in the future.
What kind of organisation keeps it's members by fear of leaving
Maybe the Mafia or the Scientologists ?
Even now, some are still hoping that it all collapses and we stay in the EU.
Can you believe that, after the way they have been.
It will be interesting to see if Rudd, Gauke & Clark will actually put their money where there mouth is and quit their cushy , highly paid government jobs.
I suspect that they won't.
The PM should be more worried about the 80+ ERG members deciding to form a faction like TIG.
They would become the third party which would no doubt trigger more leaving both major parties.
That would bring the government down.
Who's have thought how it has all turned out?
If only they losers had accepted the result, united behind the result and tried to get the best possible deal for the country.
Of course, the EU may conceded the backstop issue but that now looks unlikely, so their intransigence will have caused a no deal WA by accident.
I think that it could be the best result.
A clean break.
No half in/half out.
A proper Brexit which is what people voted for.
I think that it could be the best result.
A clean break.
No half in/half out.
A proper Brexit which is what people voted for.
and we all live happily ever after
I think that we will once people have come to terms with it Ray.
It will be best for all because the UK has never really bought in to the EU model, has it?
We've always been a thorn in their side.
There you go again Barney, a percentage of the UK never bought into it, say about half? with the other half thinking leaving to be
absurdly, over-optimistic fantasy or an unrealistically idealistic state where everything is perfect.
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