Brexit

[Manoverboard]

Absolutely right Barney.

I, as a Leaver, have no need to sign anything or march anywhere. I voted in 2016 along with another 35 million soles and now I am content enough to await the method by which we will leave the EU. We may not leave with Teresa's deal but there can be little doubt that we will be leaving.

Those who have a need to sign everything, walk about with placards / mega phones else discuss their ' Remain ' preferences endlessly on Social Media with like minded people are simply demonstrating their desperate attempts to seek comfort with others who want their own way rather than to accept the will of the people.

Towny was also right when he said that most of the Brexiteers will accept any form of ' Leave ' in spite of strong preferences that they may have held at the outset. This is being flexible in the face of reality but it seems the Remainers are of a fixed mind and come Hell or high water will never give up on their quest to remain in the EU. Good luck but I wont be joining them.

[Onelife]

Ok’ so they’ve pressed a few keys on the computer, had their little ramble through the streets of London and achieved what? Absolutely diddly squat in my opinion…probably a bit unfair as I suppose a surge in the purchase of lunch boxes will be of benefit to someone.

All this whinging amounts to nothing more than going back to the bookie and asking for your money back because you didn’t like the result…the result stands I’m afraid so get used to it.

I’m more confident now than ever that Theresa’s deal will go through, whether she is there to take it onto the next stage is another matter but she will deliver.

Keep the faith

Still loving Theresa xx

[Jack Staff]

Jack and his pals, Barney and Keith were as usual in the Nags Head, their local of the last forty years.
After a few bevvies, talk comes round to the old days, when they had so much fun about town.
“I know!” said Barney, “Let’s have a change, we should go to the Red Lion where we had such good times”.
“Good idea” said Keith, “But the Red Lion is all across town and the bus fare will use up all our beer money. Lets go to the Kings Arms instead.”.
“We’re comfy here” said Jack.
“But it’s so boring” Keith and Barney replied in unison.
“Look” said Jack, “It’s cold, the weathers awful and it’s nice here next to the fireplace. If we stay here the barmaid might give us peanuts”.
“Peanuts?” shouted Keith.
“Damn right peanuts, after forty years we get peanuts, this pub is rubbish” said Barney.
“So is the Kings Arms and we won’t get peanuts at the Red Lion or the Kings Arms” said Jack.
As the volume increases, the landlord comes over with his stern face on.
“OK lads, keep it down, you might upset the other punters”.
As the landlord walks away Keith says “Hah, we’ll show him. He needs us more than we need him”.
“Well then” said Barney, “It’s decided. Two to one we are out of here”.

Half an hour later the guys are still standing in the Nags car park. Cold and wet. Unable to make a decision.

Do they go to Red Lion, for a grand night, but with no beer?
Or the Kings Arms for more of the same, but without the peanuts?
Or do they go back into the Nags head, dry off in front of the fire and have both beer and peanuts?

[anniec]

Farage is calling for a rally on Friday in Parliament Sq. It’ll be interesting to see how many turn up.

Perhaps we learned long ago that marches/demonstrations make no difference - went on several in the 60s, it changed nothing. Dragged myself off the sofa for the Iraq one. Made no difference.

Can't speak for anyone else on here, but I'm saving myself for the "Peoples' Vote". If that comes to pass, I shall drag my knuckles down to the polling booth and carefully place my cross against "leave". Again.

[anniec]

Well, it was a very uplifting day out.

The snippy comments are only what I expected from certain people in these parts.

Typical that you can't even admit it was an impressive turn out of people

Petition up to 4.5 million now.

I'm happy to acknowledge that it was an impressive turn out and delighted that you had an uplifting day.

Welcome back.

[towny44]

I think you’ve illustrated the problem for Brexit supporters. Even at this late stage, there’s no agreement on what Brexit looks like. One person might be happy with a ‘soft Brexit’ whereas the next person might view it as a ‘betrayal’ and will claim that ‘the Brexit they voted for has been stolen’.
I worry that you don't really understand the Brexit process, so far TM has negotiated a WA which should allow the UK to negotiate a hopefully comprehensive free trade deal with the EU, without compromising our ability to to negotiate FTA's with non EU countries. Something the majority of leavers wanted.
I agree that the biggest problem for Brexit supporters is that they are blasé. They are clinging to the result of a tainted referendum from three years ago, and are still saying the same things that they were saying back then. They need to publically show more passion and move with the times. Farage’s two week March should have 1000’s of people on it, not (about) 140. They should be treated like conquering heros as they pass through towns - that is just not happening. There are such things as leave petitions - but they aren’t being signed.
If awaiting the outcome of a desperate remain supporting parliament to finally embrace reality is your idea of blase then so be it

Yesterday, upwards of 1m people marched and totay the Remain petition will top 5m. It’s a public display of how people feel.

Whereas all we get from Leavers are the same tired phrases from 2016, indicating they haven’t moved along with events, and then the threats. Death threats to Mp’s and petition organisers, threats against people from overseas from fat, middle aged men in pineapple vests, and threats of violence if ‘Brexit is betrayed’.
It’s not a good image.
Again I am worried about your understanding of where we are in the process, the decision was to leave and we are waiting for the ref. to blow the whistle for half time signalling the end of the WA period, and the start of the FTA discussions. We can only move on once this is complete, you seem to assume that we should be taking far more notice of project fear and worrying about what life outside the EU will provide. However until we start to see the progress of the FTA there is no way we will be able to assess how this might affect us. So for the leavers it is a wait and see situation, apart from the backstop the WA seems to provide us with a reasonably satisfactory deal, even if a bit pricey, so to expect us to change our minds purely on media and political speculation is not going to happen.

[Gill W]

Well, it was a very uplifting day out.

The snippy comments are only what I expected from certain people in these parts.

Typical that you can't even admit it was an impressive turn out of people

Petition up to 4.5 million now.

I'm happy to acknowledge that it was an impressive turn out and delighted that you had an uplifting day.

Welcome back.

Thank you, it was a good day out. I've never been on a march like this before, and I'm glad I did it.


PS, Towny, don't worry yourself, I have a very good understanding of what's going on.

[barney]

Jack and his pals, Barney and Keith were as usual in the Nags Head, their local of the last forty years.
After a few bevvies, talk comes round to the old days, when they had so much fun about town.
“I know!” said Barney, “Let’s have a change, we should go to the Red Lion where we had such good times”.
“Good idea” said Keith, “But the Red Lion is all across town and the bus fare will use up all our beer money. Lets go to the Kings Arms instead.”.
“We’re comfy here” said Jack.
“But it’s so boring” Keith and Barney replied in unison.
“Look” said Jack, “It’s cold, the weathers awful and it’s nice here next to the fireplace. If we stay here the barmaid might give us peanuts”.
“Peanuts?” shouted Keith.
“Damn right peanuts, after forty years we get peanuts, this pub is rubbish” said Barney.
“So is the Kings Arms and we won’t get peanuts at the Red Lion or the Kings Arms” said Jack.
As the volume increases, the landlord comes over with his stern face on.
“OK lads, keep it down, you might upset the other punters”.
As the landlord walks away Keith says “Hah, we’ll show him. He needs us more than we need him”.
“Well then” said Barney, “It’s decided. Two to one we are out of here”.

Half an hour later the guys are still standing in the Nags car park. Cold and wet. Unable to make a decision.

Do they go to Red Lion, for a grand night, but with no beer?
Or the Kings Arms for more of the same, but without the peanuts?
Or do they go back into the Nags head, dry off in front of the fire and have both beer and peanuts?

And then the Landlord of the Nags Head informed Keith and Barney that although he valued their regular contribution into his pension fund, his cousin in Latvia wanted some landscape gardening done but he didn't have the money to do it. So he asked Keith and barney if they would stump up the money for it. While you're at it, another cousin in Italy would like a rail tunnel built into France. Could you please let me have a bit more money to pay for that. At that stage, Keith and barney decided to drink elsewhere. Jack meanwhile didn't care what the landlord spent his money on. He just wanted to drink in the Nags head at any cost.

[Onelife]

“I believe the EU has become a huge, overly costly, bureaucratic organisation fundamentally lacking in both democracy and accountability to the many millions of people who pay for it through their taxes and who are bound to live by its rules”

Anna Soubry

[Jack Staff]

“I believe the EU has become a huge, overly costly, bureaucratic organisation fundamentally lacking in both democracy and accountability to the many millions of people who pay for it through their taxes and who are bound to live by its rules”

Anna Soubry

She supposedly said that in 2011. She has changed her mind, obviously, as her right in a democracy, according to David Davis anyway.
I would suggest that Darren Grimes is not the most reliable or unbiased of sources.

[Onelife]

“I believe the EU has become a huge, overly costly, bureaucratic organisation fundamentally lacking in both democracy and accountability to the many millions of people who pay for it through their taxes and who are bound to live by its rules”

Anna Soubry

She supposedly said that in 2011. She has changed her mind, obviously, as her right in a democracy, according to David Davis anyway.
I would suggest that Darren Grimes is not the most reliable or unbiased of sources.

Not a problem if it wasn’t for the fact that her views back then are more relevant today

[Jack Staff]

She supposedly said that in 2011. She has changed her mind, obviously, as her right in a democracy, according to David Davis anyway.
I would suggest that Darren Grimes is not the most reliable or unbiased of sources.

Not a problem if it wasn’t for the fact that her views back then are more relevant today

What are you trying to say?
We all find out new things and change our minds as we learn new facts.
Her views of back then are irrelevant today as they were incorrect, hence her change of heart.

I'm still not even sure that any of this is true anyway, as Grimes has already been fined £20,000 for his shenanigans.

Shall we start talking about the things Theresa was saying in the first half of 2016?

[barney]

TM was a slight remainer and no doubt still is, given the choice. The only reason she is advocating leave is because she is fully aware of the carnage that will follow if she renages on her manifesto pledge. The Tories would be wiped out at the next election. I'd imagine Farage's brexit party would become the main opposition to Labour. Millions of Labour and Conservative voters will switch to it and I'd reckon quite a few existing MPs as well.

[oldbluefox]

A good many Labour MPs in the north could find themselves in trouble in staunchly Leave areas. If you put a red rosette on a donkey many would vote for it but Brexit is a different matter and they are far from happy in these parts.
I sense political carnage.

[Jack Staff]

A good many Conservative MPs in the country could find themselves in trouble in staunchly Remain areas. If you put a blue rosette on a donkey many would vote for it but Brexit is a different matter and they are far from happy in these parts.
I sense political carnage.

[Jack Staff]

TM was a slight remainer and no doubt still is, given the choice. The only reason she is advocating leave is because she is fully aware of the carnage that will follow if she renages on her manifesto pledge. The Tories would be wiped out at the next election. I'd imagine Farage's brexit party would become the main opposition to Labour. Millions of Labour and Conservative voters will switch to it and I'd reckon quite a few existing MPs as well.

The Tories will be wiped out at the next election, whatever.
The disaster of the last three years has done that, not only the Brexit fiasco, but also because they have let that dominate their entire thinking and ignored the real problems in the country.
Farage is now a joke and is a liability. Any party associated with him will fail.
Exactly how things will land is obviously still unknown, but I would not be surprised to see the TIGgers growing in number over the next week or two.
Equally, I imagine some Brexity types are looking at them thinking, we could do that too, especially from Labour, as Watson's influence seems to grow on the party. Also the ERG maybe thinking of a new home, perhaps they could join the Labour Piglets (for want of a better name).

It's going to get interesting!

[oldbluefox]

As the LibDems are the openly Remain party you would expect they would sweep into power.

[Jack Staff]

As the LibDems are the openly Remain party you would expect they would sweep into power.

Who?

[Jack Staff]

As the LibDems are the openly Remain party you would expect they would sweep into power.

Who?

But seriously, yes you are correct, it will be the Lib Dem/SNP/Plaid/Green/Tigger party, though a more catchy name might help.
As such a coalition would be difficult, maybe a government of national unity with some of the remaining Labour, Conservative MP's.

[barney]

They have nothing in common except their distain for the result of the referendum. Like the Tig, it will fall apart after brexit. A government of national unity is a folly because there is and never has been national unity politically. The likes of Soubry and Umunna have absolutely nothing in common bar ignoring the electorate.

[towny44]

The Tories will be wiped out at the next election, whatever.
The disaster of the last three years has done that, not only the Brexit fiasco, but also because they have let that dominate their entire thinking and ignored the real problems in the country.
Strangely enough Jack the last 3 years of better than expected UK economic growth outstripping that of the rest of the EU seems to have proved my point, that minimal government interference in the economy is much better for the country than constant tinkering around with things.
Farage is now a joke and is a liability. Any party associated with him will fail.
Exactly how things will land is obviously still unknown, but I would not be surprised to see the TIGgers growing in number over the next week or two.
Equally, I imagine some Brexity types are looking at them thinking, we could do that too, especially from Labour, as Watson's influence seems to grow on the party. Also the ERG maybe thinking of a new home, perhaps they could join the Labour Piglets (for want of a better name).

It's going to get interesting!
[/quote]

[oldbluefox]

Are you suggesting the SNP would be interested in representing anybody in Parliament but Scotland? The clue is in the title. And what would happen should Scotland gain independence which is the ultimate aim of the SNP?
Plaid? Greens/Tigger? I think you are scraping around there for any substantial influence on the British electorate. It's a pipe dream.
I wouldn't object to a General Election and give the public the chance to be rid of those MPs who are failing to represent them in parliament - Remain and Leave. They should all be held to account.

[Jack Staff]

Strangely enough Jack the last 3 years of better than expected UK economic growth outstripping that of the rest of the EU seems to have proved my point, that minimal government interference in the economy is much better for the country than constant tinkering around with things.

Yes, if we only consider the economy.
I remember Belgium did fine without any government for eighteen months!
But as you have said the economy is not everything. The headlines are all homeless, stabbings, food banks....
The voters want action.

[towny44]

Strangely enough Jack the last 3 years of better than expected UK economic growth outstripping that of the rest of the EU seems to have proved my point, that minimal government interference in the economy is much better for the country than constant tinkering around with things.

Yes, if we only consider the economy.
I remember Belgium did fine without any government for eighteen months!
But as you have said the economy is not everything. The headlines are all homeless, stabbings, food banks....
The voters want action.

Jack, if you are unable to discern when news stories are being spun to make political points, then why should we take any notice of your Brexit pronouncements?

[Jack Staff]

Are you suggesting ...

Depends on the timescale we are talking about.
In the short term SNP is anti Brexit because they want to be in a better EU.
If England stays in the EU, the need for independence is reduced. We have previously discussed that the SNP aren't quite as nationalist as the name professes.
But the red/blue politics of the seventies are over.
The one good thing that might come from Brexit is PR.