Brexit

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Jack Staff
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Re: Brexit

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barney wrote: 06 Apr 2019, 22:34
What a brilliant idea. Borderline genius. Over rule a vote and ask the electorate to vote again....... And again..... And again. Keep going until we Get It Right. Priceless.
I was talking about a confirmatory referendum not Theresa May. :sarcasm:
Testiculi ad Brexitum. Venceremos.

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Manoverboard
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Re: Brexit

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Gill W wrote: 06 Apr 2019, 18:27
Manoverboard wrote: 06 Apr 2019, 16:28
Gill W wrote: 06 Apr 2019, 15:49
I don't know why you feel the need to bring up being a moderator? It's nothing to do with that, I was speaking to you, the person, not the moderator.
I tried to provide you with an honest and comprehensive response regarding ' jumping on people ', it is only as a Moderator that I can possibly jump on anybody. You seem to spend most of your time jumping on Leavers so if they jump back it can surely not be a surprise, can it ?

One thing for certain is that those who voted to leave cannot be held responsible for the debacle that we are witnessing.


.
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towny44
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Re: Brexit

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My Canadian BIL keeps sending me articles about Brexit from a Canadian perspective, generally very scathing about Brexit itself and more so about how the Govt. has undertaken the negotiations.
The following is his latest, slightly less scathing but emphasising the difference in the negotiating tactics, from the Govts ineptness and the EUs determined focus.
The authors view is that we have been outmanoeuvred at all points and clearly made to look foolish by experts, not very pleasant thoughts and about the only thing making it a little less hurtful is the vision I have of Jack and Gill as Barnier's and Tusk's glove puppets. 8-) :lol:


Brexit is a triumph of diplomacy and planning - just not for Britain

Author: Saunders, Doug

Publication info: The Globe and Mail ; Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]06 Apr 2019: O.11.

Full text:
On the day Britain had been scheduled to leave the European Union a week ago, I was invited to an event in central Brussels that was meant to be an elegy for the loss of an important partner, with sombre readings and speeches. It turned into a punch-drunk celebration, the Belgians and Britons spilling out into the cobblestones on a warm Friday night in happy relief at the United Kingdom's comically botched departure. Given this week's House of Commons chaos and ever-debated deadlines, there might soon be a repeat engagement.

Elsewhere in town, there is a more substantial and lasting mood of satisfaction. Britain may yet end its 46-year membership in the 28-nation bloc, possibly in a catastrophic way; but there is a dawning sense, in this city's sterile European quarter, that this has been a strategic and ideological victory.

Say what you will about Brexit, but it has unquestionably been a triumph of effective, measured diplomacy and exhaustive, intelligent planning.

Absolutely none of it has been on the British side, mind you.

Brussels has a well-deserved reputation for bureaucratic inaction, organizational myopia and opaque, inhuman leadership.

The things that turned Britons and other Europeans off about the EU, as an organization, are real. But something about Brexit brought out the higher democratic principles behind the union, cut through the administrative morass and brought the member countries together around well-picked representatives.

The first of those was European Council President Donald Tusk who, as a former prime minister of Poland and a survivor of its 20th-century traumas, did not need to be reminded why, in an organized community of democracies, solidarity matters. And solidarity is what he delivered: For months before Britain's 2016 referendum vote, he marshalled the 27 governments around a common position - one from which, over the next three years, they would not waver.

Britain would be encouraged to exercise its right to leave. But it would not be permitted to begin negotiating its post-Brexit relationship with Europe until after it was gone - contrary to what the U.K.'s Brexiteers had hoped. And there would be no negotiations with any individual countries, including its EU neighbour Ireland - the only talks would be in Brussels. And if it wanted a divorce deal that kept goods and money flowing across the border while a post-Brexit relationship was being negotiated - a process that could take a decade - it would have to find a way to keep the Irish border open.

Britain, on the other hand, had planned nothing. Former prime minister David Cameron, believing a referendum loss impossible, refused to authorize plans for a Leave outcome. His successor, Theresa May, tried to improvise and work her political contacts, and was blocked at every step.

EU negotiators Michel Barnier, a French politician respected across the bloc, and Jean-Claude Juncker, the droll former prime minister of Luxembourg, held Ms. May and her cabinet hard to these lines. She was forced to accept a set of compromises that have led to 39 members of her government resigning over the past year, and to the deadlock in the House of Commons. Even if Britain does exit the EU, hard or soft, that will only be the beginning of many more wasted years of chaos and compromise and dysfunction.

No other EU government, no matter how anti-Brussels, will ever want to repeat that experience.

Indeed, even Steve Bannon, the extreme-right former adviser to Donald Trump who has spent recent years trying to drum up ethnic-nationalist movements in Europe, complained last week that Brussels' negotiating success around Brexit has been fatal to anti-EU politics across the continent. "There has been a shift, definitely a shift," he lamented to Chico Harlan of The Washington Post. Since 2016, "I have not seen one [party], except the U.K. guys, say 'we want to exit.'... The agony of Britain in the last two years has clearly been a subtext for [other Euro-skeptic governments to say] 'Let's try to make this thing [Europe] work.' " Whether in Italy, Hungary, Poland or the Czech Republic, no political leader on the populist right seems interested any longer in following the path of Britain.

Today, they would rather lobby to reduce the EU's powers, or get it to enforce tougher immigration policies or stack its Parliament.

Leaving no longer looks like a desirable option.

Behind that shift is a larger victory: The Brexit experience has reshaped the attitudes of Europe's 500 million citizens. Polls taken in recent months have found that two-thirds of European voters now believe the EU is a force for the good - the highest level of voter support the EU has enjoyed since the early 1980s.

Three years ago, most of us expected Brexit to inaugurate a cascade of countries leaving the pact and a crumbling of its support.

Instead, the opposite has happened. Maybe it was something about the sight of angry governments closing borders, and of hateful figures such as Mr. Bannon looming on the horizon, that reminded a lot of Europeans of the historic tragedies that led them to create this thing in the first place.
John

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Gill W
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Re: Brexit

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Towny, I'd rather be Tusk's glove puppet, than the glove puppet of Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Gove, Farage, Banks and Yaxley-Lennon. Just saying.
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towny44
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Re: Brexit

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Gill W wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 09:49
Towny, I'd rather be Tusk's glove puppet, than the glove puppet of Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Gove, Farage, Banks and Yaxley-Lennon. Just saying.
Whatever turns you on Gill? :o :shock: :lol:
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Gill W
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Re: Brexit

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anniec wrote: 06 Apr 2019, 19:34
Gill W wrote: 06 Apr 2019, 18:47

However, it’s my fault this has happened, as I am a Remainer :moresarcasm:
Gill, I'm certainly not blaming you personally, and I hope no one else is - this debate always had two sides to it and (so far) I haven't fallen out with anyone over it; no rights or wrongs, only different opinions. I voted remain in 1975 and may have done so again this time had anyone managed to convince me of the wisdom of staying the EU. They didn't.

However, the remainers in Parliament have, IMHO, done a huge amount of damage in their efforts to overturn a vote that they called, that they told us was a once in a generation referendum and all the rest of it. They told us we finally had a say, then did everything they possibly could to sabotage a result they didn't expect or like.

I do hope Yvette Cooper, who has done a great deal of damage to our democracy and our negotiations, not that May needed any help to mess it up, is looking forward to meeting her constituents, nearly 70% of whom voted to leave.

Their behaviour has been simply appalling.
Don't worry, Annie, none of this was directed in your direction.

I was getting at the weird belief that ALL Remaners are somehow to blame for where we are now, yet, when that concept is turned around slightly, and it's suggested that maybe Leavers should consider 'owning' their part in where we are now, the concept is completely rejected, but at the same time, they double down on on the Remain blaming. The logic is lost on me, and I got to the point where I haven't got the energy to discuss it with them.

Regarding Yvette Cooper, I think she is genuinely trying to save the country from the disaster of a no deal Brexit, and is doing her job to act in the best interests of the country. I'm not sure what she's doing will actually work, but she's one of the least self serving MP's we have in Parliament today. If her Constituents don't like it, no doubt she'll get deselected - but at least she tried,
Gill

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Gill W
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by Gill W »

barney wrote: 06 Apr 2019, 18:29
What is almost certain is that if our country had have all pulled in the same direction after the referendum result, things would have been different. The simple point that many could and would not accept the result changed an awful lot.
Perhaps the simple point is that we never had effective leadership to help unite us, and never had anybody capable of negotiating a deal that the population could find half way palatable.
Gill

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Manoverboard
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Re: Brexit

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Yvette Cooper … she should be sent to the Tower else get the Legion D' Honneur for her efforts in screwing our hand at the negotiating table. :thumbdown:
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Re: Brexit

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Manoverboard wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 10:14
Yvette Cooper … she should be sent to the Tower else get the Legion D' Honneur for her efforts in screwing our hand at the negotiating table. :thumbdown:
And let's not forget Letwin. There is a special place in hell reserved... :D

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Re: Brexit

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anniec wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 13:46
Manoverboard wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 10:14
Yvette Cooper … she should be sent to the Tower else get the Legion D' Honneur for her efforts in screwing our hand at the negotiating table. :thumbdown:
And let's not forget Letwin. There is a special place in hell reserved... :D
Absolutely so … he should be banished forthwith from the beautiful County of Darzet :D
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Re: Brexit

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I think that time is up for the brexit we expected. If TM and Jezza cannot cobble a part remain deal together or the EU refuse extension, then that is when Parliament will revoke A50. Whatever now happens, brexit is over. Sorry but that is my assessment of the situation.
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Re: Brexit

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Manoverboard wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 10:14
Yvette Cooper … she should be sent to the Tower else get the Legion D' Honneur for her efforts in screwing our hand at the negotiating table. :thumbdown:
Yvette Cooper of the bleeding heart club. Instead of her husband gallivanting around dancing and trekking she should get him a proper job as an EU commissioner. Ooops, what have I said? :sarcasm:
I could see no way TM would accept Corbyn's idea of Brexit which would tie us in to the EU but we lose any negotiating power we had. That was worse than remaining.
Last edited by oldbluefox on 07 Apr 2019, 16:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

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barney wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 15:26
I think that time is up for the brexit we expected. If TM and Jezza cannot cobble a part remain deal together or the EU refuse extension, then that is when Parliament will revoke A50. Whatever now happens, brexit is over. Sorry but that is my assessment of the situation.
Mine too Barney but not too bothered since anything further watered down from TMs political declaration will not, IMO, be a real Brexit, so we may as well stay in and create disruption from within.
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Onelife
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Re: Brexit

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barney wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 15:26
I think that time is up for the brexit we expected. If TM and Jezza cannot cobble a part remain deal together or the EU refuse extension, then that is when Parliament will revoke A50. Whatever now happens, brexit is over. Sorry but that is my assessment of the situation.
Chin Up Barney…you only lost a tenner. :lol:

It sounds like there is going to be a compromise on the customs union, although it’ll only be a case of tweaking it a little in order that Corbyn’s rabble can say they’ve saved Brexit. I’m not sure what will give but what you can be sure about is that it won’t involve much of a bend in Theresa’s red lines. There'll definitely be no compromise on the UK being able to negotiate our own free trade deals.

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oldbluefox
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Re: Brexit

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Onelife wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 16:22
There'll definitely be no compromise on the UK being able to negotiate our own free trade deals.
I would like to think you are right OL and a better bet than that donkey, Vintage Cloud who fell at the first fence!!! :lol:
Last edited by oldbluefox on 07 Apr 2019, 16:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Gill W
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by Gill W »

barney wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 15:26
I think that time is up for the brexit we expected. If TM and Jezza cannot cobble a part remain deal together or the EU refuse extension, then that is when Parliament will revoke A50. Whatever now happens, brexit is over. Sorry but that is my assessment of the situation.
If what you say happens - I would be so relieved.

I know that the damage has already been done, and it will take us years recover the fractures it has caused, not to mention our international reputation.

But, for it just to STOP - that would be bliss.

However, I feel it will just drag on forever, as they haven't got the guts to revoke A50.
Gill

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Re: Brexit

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oldbluefox wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 16:36
Onelife wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 16:22
There'll definitely be no compromise on the UK being able to negotiate our own free trade deals.
I would like to think you are right OL and a better bet than that donkey, Vintage Cloud who fell at the first fence!!! :lol:
Hi Foxy…as you may have noticed I dislike bad losers but unlike Remainers I have to accept the result :(

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Re: Brexit

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barney wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 15:26
I think that time is up for the brexit we expected. If TM and Jezza cannot cobble a part remain deal together or the EU refuse extension, then that is when Parliament will revoke A50. Whatever now happens, brexit is over. Sorry but that is my assessment of the situation.
Barney, I would concur; there appears to be little or no chance of May and Corbyn sorting anything out, it is not in the EU's interest to help, so faced with a decision to cliff edge or revoke, MP's will not wish to be blamed for the potential catastrophe in the short term (a couple of years) of allowing their vote being attached to a cliff edge departure.

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Re: Brexit

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Theresa’s deal is still a viable option and when push comes to shove the scheming Remainers will back her deal rather than face a no deal Brexit, revoking article 50 or indeed face a long extension.

Still loving Theresa xx


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Re: Brexit

Unread post by anniec »

Onelife wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 18:04
Theresa’s deal is still a viable option and when push comes to shove the scheming Remainers will back her deal rather than face a no deal Brexit, revoking article 50 or indeed face a long extension.

Still loving Theresa xx
Crikey. roughly 66,000,000 people in this country and her only fan is on here. :D

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Re: Brexit

Unread post by Onelife »

anniec wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 18:12
Onelife wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 18:04
Theresa’s deal is still a viable option and when push comes to shove the scheming Remainers will back her deal rather than face a no deal Brexit, revoking article 50 or indeed face a long extension.

Still loving Theresa xx
Crikey. roughly 66,000,000 people in this country and her only fan is on here. :D
Hi anniec,
Love her or hate her she is the only chance we have of delivering Brexit and the reason why I will stick with her until the final outcome. Of course, her task could have been less onerous if it wasn’t for all the scheming Remainers and political opportunists all telling her that their way was the better way, while some were saying “no way, whatever way”
.
Her deal isn’t perfect but one has to be realistic, there wasn’t a blueprint for delivering Brexit, neither could she have envisaged the barriers that have been put in front of her.

I actually think the deal that Theresa has painstakingly carved out for us is the best she could have got considering how our Remainer politicians have scuppered our negotiating position time after time.

If you are looking for someone to blame then you should look no further than traitor Blair who went to Brussels with an agenda of reassuring Junker and Co that the UK saboteurs wouldn’t allow Brexit to happen.

Love may be blind Annie but I admire her tenacity and for not crumbling under what has been the most intense pressure.

Btw…people who know me say I’m one in a million :thumbup: :D

:wave:
Last edited by Onelife on 07 Apr 2019, 22:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Gill W
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Re: Brexit

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A Brexiter speaks

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... hink-again

And he’s taking sense.
Gill

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Re: Brexit

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Gill W wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 23:26
A Brexiter speaks

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... hink-again

And he’s taking sense.
Is that a new form of ecstasy? :sarcasm:

I agree with some of his points, but I think he is being far too pessimistic. The world economy is slowing down so it would be foolish to think that the UK economy would be unaffected, but I accept that some inward investment is being delayed by the uncertainty of Brexit.
I have also said that anything less than TM's proposals would not be a true brexit, however a delay of only 12 months is hardly likely to break the current logjam, ergo we would be better off staying in the EU and rowing furiously against the current flow. That way we can hopefully annoy Brussels so much that next time we invoke article 50 they will be only too happy to give us an extremely good deal to get rid of us, if not we can go round again until they do.
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Re: Brexit

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Onelife wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 22:11
Btw…people who know me say I’m one in a million :thumbup: :D

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Especially so when you've had a drink … just saying :thumbup:
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Re: Brexit

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Manoverboard wrote: 08 Apr 2019, 09:21
Onelife wrote: 07 Apr 2019, 22:11
Btw…people who know me say I’m one in a million :thumbup: :D

:wave:
Especially so when you've had a drink … just saying :thumbup:
Yep!...I've always followed your lead Mob :thumbup: :D

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