Brexit

[oldbluefox]

There are a good many communities in UK who, after 40 years of the EU, have suffered loss of opportunity and lack of finance to encourage economic growth, which explains why they voted to leave.

[Jack Staff]

There are a good many communities in UK who, after 40 years of the EU, have suffered loss of opportunity and lack of finance to encourage economic growth, which explains why they voted to leave.

Your post explains nothing apart from your feelings for the EU.

[oldbluefox]

I'm alright Jack explains your comment and why you voted Remain.

[Jack Staff]

I'm alright Jack explains your comment and why you voted Remain.

Are you Mystic Meg?
You know about "many communities" (with absolutely no qualification) and you know all about my financial situation. Amazing.

[barney]

Just today there is a book out by Stig Abel qualifying that statement. Most of the UK outside London has seen little benefit from EU membership. Given that we have a contribution deficit of nearly £9 billion it's hardly surprising. Paradoxically the good folk of Valletta have done extremely well.

[Jack Staff]

"Most of the UK outside London has seen little benefit from EU membership."

And just who is it that decides where (any) benefits go?

This is a failure of British governments, not the EU.

[towny44]

"Most of the UK outside London has seen little benefit from EU membership."

And just who is it that decides where (any) benefits go?

This is a failure of British governments, not the EU.

If you believe that 40+yrs of UK govts have all been failures, why on earth do you want to stay here?????

[Jack Staff]

If you believe that 40+yrs of UK govts have all been failures, why on earth do you want to stay here?????

Because I am British.

[Onelife]

Absolutely Ray. I thought she was a do nothing Home Secretary but she's turned into a do nothing PM. The plan, as you put it should have been very simple. Leave the EU with a trade agreement. A trade deal negates the WA.

In fairness, she was dealt a very weak hand, a party rife with division, where she did not feel comfortable with a majority of 17. controlled to a large degree by a minority but powerful element. Unwilling to seek consensus. Even David Davies suggested this at the beginning of the 'negotiations', Oh and I don't think that anyone can reasonably consider that there was a simple solution out there.

Hi Ray,

Whilst we sit on opposing sides of the Brexit issue, I must say your comments about Theresa do you credit. She was indeed dealt a poor hand and in the spirit of fairness if it were the case that we could turn the clock back to 2016 we would have been better served had we allowed more time before embarking on what has proved to be unprecedented complex negotiations.

Whilst there have been many negative comments about Theresa (some justified) on this forum I find it hard to believe that they truly reflect what the majority of people (Barney being the exception) really think of her, whether that be on this forum or indeed the house of commons. She has retained her dignity, her composure, her strength of conviction and fronted a team that has carved out a deal, that in all honesty, no other country could have managed.

She will deliver…

Still loving Theresa xx

[barney]

Love is blind Keefy

[barney]

I would like to correct one statement if you don't mind. She wasn't dealt a bad hand. She chose to stand as leader and won on a mandate of taking the UK out of the EU. Had she said in her leadership pitch that she really intended staying close to the EU, she would never have got the job. All that has gone so wrong is totally down to her and her advisors. For allowing the EU to totally dictate the negotiations, she lost from day one.

[towny44]

I would like to correct one statement if you don't mind. She wasn't dealt a bad hand. She chose to stand as leader and won on a mandate of taking the UK out of the EU. Had she said in her leadership pitch that she really intended staying close to the EU, she would never have got the job. All that has gone so wrong is totally down to her and her advisors. For allowing the EU to totally dictate the negotiations, she lost from day one.

A bit harsh Barney, I don't know the full facts but it seems she tried to negotiate a stand alone agreement but found the EU unwilling to let her "cherry pick". She was certainly not helped by her losing her overall majority in the 2017 GE, and possibly by her poor choice of David Davis as Brexit secretary, however a bigger majority in 2017 would have given her a much stronger hand and probably resulted in a very different outcome.
As always 20:20 hindsight is a wonderful way of always being right.

[barney]

That's exactly my point John. The day that the EU said that the WA had to preceed any trade talks was the day that she should have said that this is unacceptable to us and vigorously started no deal arrangements. It's not cherry picking, it's negotiating. Had the UK been prepared to leave, the EU stance would have had to change as we can now see that they are more concerned about no deal than we are. Hence the continued extensions. They are not extending for our benefit but for theirs. They know our economy can stand it but the Eurozone can't.

[Onelife]

Hi Barney, 


l have already acknowledged Theresa has made mistakes, the biggest of all was the appointment of David Davis as Brexit secertery. It soon became clear that he was completely  out of his depth.....wasn't it he who didn't  realise that the Republic of Ireland was a separate county? The man was totally unprepared for what lay ahead of him, this became quite apparent at his first meeting with Barnier...l remember seeing a news report of him sat on the opposite side of the negotiating table with nothing but a cocky grin on his face while his three counterparts came prepared with what l can only presume were already well prepared briefs on  how they wished to proceed. 


Sadly, he was left in post for another 7 months before Theresa took things into her own hands and basically  got rid of him.


It was nigh on impossible to turn back the clock on what had already been agreed so having lost our opening gambit position it was left to Theresa to turn it around and from where l am sitting she has delivered to the table a deal that gives us the best chance of making Brexit a success.


If you are looking for someone to blame Barney then Davis is your man.

[towny44]

That's exactly my point John. The day that the EU said that the WA had to preceed any trade talks was the day that she should have said that this is unacceptable to us and vigorously started no deal arrangements. It's not cherry picking, it's negotiating. Had the UK been prepared to leave, the EU stance would have had to change as we can now see that they are more concerned about no deal than we are. Hence the continued extensions. They are not extending for our benefit but for theirs. They know our economy can stand it but the Eurozone can't.

I would love to believe in your economic theories Barney but despite agreeing that overall the effect on the EU might be greater in value, unfortunately for us it would represent a much higher, and therefore an unacceptable, proportion of our GDP.

[barney]

Hi Barney, 


l have already acknowledged Theresa has made mistakes, the biggest of all was the appointment of David Davis as Brexit secertery. It soon became clear that he was completely  out of his depth.....wasn't it he who didn't  realise that the Republic of Ireland was a separate county? The man was totally unprepared for what lay ahead of him, this became quite apparent at his first meeting with Barnier...l remember seeing a news report of him sat on the opposite side of the negotiating table with nothing but a cocky grin on his face while his three counterparts came prepared with what l can only presume were already well prepared briefs on  how they wished to proceed. 


Sadly, he was left in post for another 7 months before Theresa took things into her own hands and basically  got rid of him.


It was nigh on impossible to turn back the clock on what had already been agreed so having lost our opening gambit position it was left to Theresa to turn it around and from where l am sitting she has delivered to the table a deal that gives us the best chance of making Brexit a success.


If you are looking for someone to blame Barney then Davis is your man.

I don't suppose that it will come as a total surprise for me to say that I don't necessarily agree with that point of view.


The buck stops with the Guvnor.

I know little of Davis but I do know that two Brexit secretaries have resigned due to being undermined by May's advisors.
To expect her to keep to her Lancaster House speech (and Florence), after winning the leadership was obviously too much.

She is unfortunately, a serial liar.
The vicar's daughter tells huge barefaced porkies.

If you think that I'm exagerating, look back at what she has said, compared to what she has done.

Even last week, she said publicly that she would never counternace an extension beyond June.
Check if you don't believe me.

All I can say about the lady is ... pants on fire ... and she will go down in history as one of the worst ever.

By the way, I'm not saying any of this in hindsight, I thought it a terrible mistake to have a remainer discussing leaving the EU, and still stand by that.
It's like having a project manager who doesn't believe in the project.

[barney]

That's exactly my point John. The day that the EU said that the WA had to preceed any trade talks was the day that she should have said that this is unacceptable to us and vigorously started no deal arrangements. It's not cherry picking, it's negotiating. Had the UK been prepared to leave, the EU stance would have had to change as we can now see that they are more concerned about no deal than we are. Hence the continued extensions. They are not extending for our benefit but for theirs. They know our economy can stand it but the Eurozone can't.

I would love to believe in your economic theories Barney but despite agreeing that overall the effect on the EU might be greater in value, unfortunately for us it would represent a much higher, and therefore an unacceptable, proportion of our GDP.

That is not my point John.
My point is that the UK economy is far more resilient that most of the EU's, including Germany, now that manufacturing is in freefall.
When the proverbial hits the fan, (which it will again) the UK recovers quickest.
Even Mark Carnage openly admits that.

I'd love to have a dicussion with you on why using GDP as a measure is false measurement.
Read George Monbiot.

[Ray Scully]

I would like to correct one statement if you don't mind. She wasn't dealt a bad hand. She chose to stand as leader and won on a mandate of taking the UK out of the EU. Had she said in her leadership pitch that she really intended staying close to the EU, she would never have got the job. All that has gone so wrong is totally down to her and her advisors. For allowing the EU to totally dictate the negotiations, she lost from day one.

Barney, I am afraid that IMHO your myopic view of Brexit is damaging the credibility of your argument in general

[barney]

Fair comment Ray. Which part of the above is inaccurate?

[Onelife]

Hi Barney, 


l have already acknowledged Theresa has made mistakes, the biggest of all was the appointment of David Davis as Brexit secertery. It soon became clear that he was completely  out of his depth.....wasn't it he who didn't  realise that the Republic of Ireland was a separate county? The man was totally unprepared for what lay ahead of him, this became quite apparent at his first meeting with Barnier...l remember seeing a news report of him sat on the opposite side of the negotiating table with nothing but a cocky grin on his face while his three counterparts came prepared with what l can only presume were already well prepared briefs on  how they wished to proceed. 


Sadly, he was left in post for another 7 months before Theresa took things into her own hands and basically  got rid of him.


It was nigh on impossible to turn back the clock on what had already been agreed so having lost our opening gambit position it was left to Theresa to turn it around and from where l am sitting she has delivered to the table a deal that gives us the best chance of making Brexit a success.


If you are looking for someone to blame Barney then Davis is your man.

I don't suppose that it will come as a total surprise for me to say that I don't necessarily agree with that point of view.


The buck stops with the Guvnor.

I know little of Davis but I do know that two Brexit secretaries have resigned due to being undermined by May's advisors.
To expect her to keep to her Lancaster House speech (and Florence), after winning the leadership was obviously too much.

She is unfortunately, a serial liar.
The vicar's daughter tells huge barefaced porkies.

If you think that I'm exagerating, look back at what she has said, compared to what she has done.

Even last week, she said publicly that she would never counternace an extension beyond June.
Check if you don't believe me.

All I can say about the lady is ... pants on fire ... and she will go down in history as one of the worst ever.

By the way, I'm not saying any of this in hindsight, I thought it a terrible mistake to have a remainer discussing leaving the EU, and still stand by that.
It's like having a project manager who doesn't believe in the project.

Hi Ray.....and there was me thinking that you were warming to her


Yes' the buck stops with her and according to both Jack and Gill a no deal Brexit would have been catastrophic for our country.......isn't that what Davis and Rabb were advocating? 


Please remind me of any previous PM's who haven't  told a few porkies in there time in office.....It called political maneuvering, so l'm told.


Theresa would never have countenanced a extention beyond June had it not been for the Cooper/letwin manipulation of parliaments democratic processes...something that will come back and bite them all in the a*se.


I think it was a thin line whether she voted remain or leave .....she has over many years disagreed with the Fedralisation of the EU....you can check this out if you want too.


I am in no doubt history will judge Theresa favorably.....They will erect a statue with an  epitaph....


"Briton shall never be slaves....she delivered on her promise"


Still loving Theresa xx

[oldbluefox]

I'm alright Jack explains your comment and why you voted Remain.

Are you Mystic Meg?
You know about "many communities" (with absolutely no qualification) and you know all about my financial situation. Amazing.

"These estimates show that while the national result of the referendum was relatively close, with 52% voting Leave and 48% voting Remain, a much larger majority of parliamentary seats voted to Leave – with 64% of seats in Great Britain voting Leave. (This is likely due to the uneven distribution of Remain voters, who tended to cluster in large cities, while Leave voters were more evenly spread.)

According to these estimates, around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave. All seats won by the Scottish National Party and the Green Party, and a majority of the seats won by the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru, voted to Remain".
".............When you factor in this uncertainty, the figures for how each party’s seats voted changes a bit. By this count, 62% of Conservative seats voted Leave, with 21% uncertain and 17% Remain. Labour’s seats, meanwhile, voted 56% Leave, 8% uncertain, and 36% Remain".

As for knowing about your financial situation I made no reference to that. I know nothing of your finances and neither do I want to.

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majorit ... gL3H_D_BwE

[barney]

Brilliant Keith

[Jack Staff]

I'm alright Jack explains your comment and why you voted Remain.

Are you Mystic Meg?
You know about "many communities" (with absolutely no qualification) and you know all about my financial situation. Amazing.

"These estimates show that while the national result of the referendum was relatively close, with 52% voting Leave and 48% voting Remain, a much larger majority of parliamentary seats voted to Leave – with 64% of seats in Great Britain voting Leave. (This is likely due to the uneven distribution of Remain voters, who tended to cluster in large cities, while Leave voters were more evenly spread.)

According to these estimates, around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave. All seats won by the Scottish National Party and the Green Party, and a majority of the seats won by the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru, voted to Remain".
".............When you factor in this uncertainty, the figures for how each party’s seats voted changes a bit. By this count, 62% of Conservative seats voted Leave, with 21% uncertain and 17% Remain. Labour’s seats, meanwhile, voted 56% Leave, 8% uncertain, and 36% Remain".

As for knowing about your financial situation I made no reference to that. I know nothing of your finances and neither do I want to.

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majorit ... gL3H_D_BwE

See? it wasn't difficult was it? Thank you.
I think we can leave that bit there as that was 2016 and things may have changed since.
"I'm alright Jack" is an old British expression implying my situation. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

[barney]

We all know that things haven't really changed though don't we. If there was another vote, the outcome would likely be very similar with either side of the argument winning by a narrow margin. Then what? Ignore the result? Try again? Status quo rules? You tell me.

[oldbluefox]

"I'm alright Jack" is an old British expression implying my situation. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

If I agreed with you Jack we'd both be wrong.
"The phrase is believed to have originated among Royal Navy sailors, where a ladder was slung over the side of a ship, and when the last sailor climbed on board he would say, "I'm alright Jack, pull up the ladder". It means "I'm OK even if you're not."
No mention of financial situation. I'm surprised you didn't know that.