Brexit

[Manoverboard]

Farage is doing nothing more than whipping the people up to line his pockets.

Whereas all the other Politicians are working flat out in the interests of the people … right, got it now.

Mr Farage is however a centre point for all those people, including me, who are angry about the shabby and arrogant way that the two major parties have ignored the will of the people and their own manifestos.

If he makes a few bob on the side … c'est la vie

[Kendhni]

Farage is doing nothing more than whipping the people up to line his pockets.

Whereas all the other Politicians are working flat out in the interests of the people … right, got it now.

Mr Farage is however a centre point for all those people, including me, who are angry about the shabby and arrogant way that the two major parties have ignored the will of the people and their own manifestos.

If he makes a few bob on the side … c'est la vie

What is this mythical 'will of the people'? I assume you are talking of the will of the 27% of "the people" that voted for something referred to as 'brexit'. But then what is this brexit? Is it the soft brexit, the hard brexit, the Norwegian model, the Swiss model, the Canada model, the Canada+++ model, the Ukranian model, the Hong Kong model, the Australian model, the Norway+ model, the WTO model, or is it 'crash out with no deal, no plan, no strategy' model. Which of those models are beneficial to the UK and which are detrimental? That is the crux of the problem, there is no single "will of the people", and definitely no "will of the people" that has been able to muster any kind of majority - even within the brexit camp itself.

One interesting side-effect of Farage's party is that they are a one trick pony party built on a single issue and will be standing in an election based on that one issue and that one issue alone. If Farage gets less than 50% of the vote then it is fair for that to be looked on that 'the will of the people' is not behind brexit. Farage has a lot to gain (personally) and also a lot to lose (giving him the benefit of the doubt that he had some credibility and integrity in the first place) - his actions could ironically give rise to a second referendum ... and i have no idea how that would go.

[barney]

Excellent post Ken, and pretty much all of it is factually accurate.

I'd take issue with your 27% but then that's for another day.

With all of your reasoned debate, you have overlooked one very important point.

That point is the old embarrassment of Democracy.

Never in our history has the result of an open vote been overturned before implementation, even if it's a stupid one.

I have had to endure nearly nine years of a Tory government.
I have never voted conservative in my life, but democracy dictates that they have won, albeit in coalition.

So, I accept defeat and hope that my side does better next time.

I didn't take to the streets in attempt to overturn the result.
Why?
Because it was a legitimate result.
As was the EU Referendum. !

Do a little bit of research and find out about the rise of what some call the far right, all across the continent.
This has come about because their respective politicians have not listened to their people, in their quest for globalisation and integration.

I couldn't happen in good old blighty, I thought.
We have little tolerance for that sort of thing.
But, slowly but surely, it's creeping in.

I'm not implying for one moment that either Farage or the Brexit Party are far right.
They seem a very mixed bunch and very much a one trick pony at the moment.

But, my point is, when the governing class, no matter their political persuation, ignore a legitimate vote, then they will feel the consequences.

I said on this forum many , many months ago, that huge change is coming, politically.
I haven't changed my mind.
The writing is on the wall and the establishment had better get some reading glasses.

[Manoverboard]

What is this mythical 'will of the people'? I assume you are talking of the will of the 27% of "the people" that voted for something referred to as 'brexit' …

27% as a percentage of a potential number of voters is irrelevant in the same way that voting in an election or to go / not to go on strike is. No public vote has ever been based on a 100% turnout but they did have the opportunity so to do.

The outcome of the Brexit vote was to leave the EU, again it is irrelevant for you to attempt to confuse the issue by bringing up the various shades of Brexit. Parliament's job to was to act on the will of the people, and they were instructed to leave the EU. This is confirmed by the vote in the House which was carried as well as being in the Labour and Conservative manifestos

My personal view of TM's deal was that she did at least attempt to represent Leavers, Remainers and the EU itself. The reason that did not happen was because too many MPs were determined to block the exit any way they could and although I find that reprehensible you seem to approve of their actions.

[barney]

Ironically the EU /TM deal would sail through parliament is the EU budged on the Irish back stop.
After watching the programme about brexit from the EU side on TV, it clearly shows that they were amazed at the incompetence of our side. Verhofstadt's team could not believe how easy Robbins and Co caved in, even offering things that they hadn't asked for.

The only amendment that has passed a vote in Parliament is The EU deal with a reworded backstop. I can't believe May's team are not pushing for some minor change that will facilitate movement.

[Kendhni]

You are way off the mark here ??????

27% as a percentage of a potential number of voters is irrelevant in the same way that voting in an election or to go / not to go on strike is. No public vote has ever been based on a 100% turnout but they did have the opportunity so to do.

You brought the "will of the people" into it .... "the people" is 100% of the population therefore it is fair to point out that this 'will' has only been expressed by 27% of the people. If you meant the 'majority of those that voted in the referendum' then that is what you should say, but that still does not give an answer to what their will was - which is why we are in the mess we are currently in.

The outcome of the Brexit vote was to leave the EU, again it is irrelevant for you to attempt to confuse the issue by bringing up the various shades of Brexit. Parliament's job to was to act on the will of the people, and they were instructed to leave the EU. This is confirmed by the vote in the House which was carried as well as being in the Labour and Conservative manifestos

It IS highly relevant how we leave the EU and is possibly the biggest issue that many in the remain camp have - to totally dismiss the mechanism that we were told 'would be the easiest of negotiations' for which 'we hold all the cards' is (at best) disingenuous if not dishonest. Parliaments job is to represent the entire population, albeit biased towards the majority (and rightly so). That is what they have been trying to do, but the problem is that sound bites like 'leave-means-leave', 'just leave' and 'no deal' are just that ... soundbites to appeal to the masses who want easy answers to complex problems.

At some point someone has to take responsibility and formulate a plan to reach the goal - the problem is there are so many plans and not one of them has the majority.

My personal view of TM's deal was that she did at least attempt to represent Leavers, Remainers and the EU itself. The reason that did not happen was because too many MPs were determined to block the exit any way they could and although I find that reprehensible you seem to approve of their actions.

I personally do not think it is a good deal, but as an interim deal that could be built on, I thought it could work - and probably is closer to the final solution than the majority of the alternative 'brexits' since it provided business, political and personal continuity.

I have made no comment about whether I approve or disapprove of the MPs actions, so how the heck you have come to that conclusion is beyond me. I have been very scathing of Boris (a blithering fool), Davies (known by his peers as being arrogant and incompetent), Rees Mogg (who says one thing and then does the other) - I find it reprehensible that people still believe these specimens after the lies they have told. I have also been scathing of the way the remain campaign was run including David Camerons role. But the group I am most scathing of are those in the electorate that still delude themselves that they understood what they were voting for - and secondly, those that refused to back the very government that was meant to deliver what they supposedly wanted (that really was akin to turkeys voting for chrIstmas)

[Kendhni]

Ironically the EU /TM deal would sail through parliament is the EU budged on the Irish back stop.
After watching the programme about brexit from the EU side on TV, it clearly shows that they were amazed at the incompetence of our side. Verhofstadt's team could not believe how easy Robbins and Co caved in, even offering things that they hadn't asked for.

The only amendment that has passed a vote in Parliament is The EU deal with a reworded backstop. I can't believe May's team are not pushing for some minor change that will facilitate movement.

I am inclined to agree with you, however the border issue was known about before the referendum and dismissed by the brexit leadership as being 'Project Fear' (in the lead up to the referendum it was getting quite a few column inches). While I don't think it is up to the EU to give in totally I think they could provide a more flexible or time-limited solution.

[barney]

A time limited solution would keep most happy Ken. For instance a five year maximum time limit. If the EU and UK cannot agree a trade agreement within that time, then they never will.
The original proposal from Barnier was to only tie the north of Ireland into a backstop.
It was May's team that insisted it was the whole UK.
Couldn't make it up, could you.

The tie in without either the option to unilaterally end it or a time limited could never pass the house. Why the EU thought she could get it through amazes me.

Given that the makeup of the EU parliament is going to radically change after July, maybe this clause can be revised.

There is an argument for unilaterally revoking A50, changing the Leader or even the government and starting the process again.
This time with a plan and without the useless team that have so far not delivered. I include Barnier in that.

[Manoverboard]

Ken …. having already been through the same loops a million times with ' Jack ' I'll leave you to exchange thoughts with Barney, he has more stomach for it than most of us.

[towny44]

Talking of Jack whatever happened to him, has he emigrated to Ireland or have the mods banned him for being a pain in the butt?

[david63]

Talking of Jack whatever happened to him, has he emigrated to Ireland or have the mods banned him for being a pain in the butt?

Perhaps he is on a cruise!

[Manoverboard]

Talking of Jack whatever happened to him, has he emigrated to Ireland or have the mods banned him for being a pain in the butt?

Perhaps he is on a cruise!

Naah … that's Gill

[david63]

Talking of Jack whatever happened to him, has he emigrated to Ireland or have the mods banned him for being a pain in the butt?

Perhaps he is on a cruise!

Naah … that's Gill

Perhaps they are away together

[screwy]

Perhaps they are one and the same.?

[Gill W]

I have returned from a cruise today.
I went on the cruise with my husband, who is not Jack.
I am a real person and not somebody else’s alter ego.
Nor do I post under an alias.
I decided several weeks ago, for numerous reasons, not to take part anymore in this thread.

I trust this clarifies the situation.

[barney]

Welcome back Gill
As you could guess, nothing has changed in your absence

[Ray B]

That's true, cross party talks came to nothing, what a waste of time. And so on it goes, is there ANYONE out there who can get this sorted.

[barney]

Me Ray

VOTE BARNEY.

[towny44]

Me Ray

VOTE BARNEY.

Despite never having voted Tory your views are far too right wing, even by ERG standards.

[barney]

Me Ray

VOTE BARNEY.

Despite never having voted Tory your views are far too right wing, even by ERG standards.

arhh ! Do me a favour John

You'll ruin my reputation as a Liberal lefty

[barney]

So, it seems that it's now fair game to throw milkshake over a politician who doesn't share your views.

What next ? Acid ?

It does appear that the Liberal Left are not quite as liberal as I'd like to think they are.

What a sad day for UK politics but we can't say that we didn't see it coming, can we ?

The day that the losing side decided to ignore the vote, the gloves came off.

[daib GC]

So, it seems that it's now fair game to throw milkshake over a politician who doesn't share your views.

What next ? Acid ?

It does appear that the Liberal Left are not quite as liberal as I'd like to think they are.

What a sad day for UK politics but we can't say that we didn't see it coming, can we ?

The day that the losing side decided to ignore the vote, the gloves came off.

Sorry was the Labour MP not killed by the right wing loony at the time of the Brexit vote. There is nothing new about what happened the other day.

[barney]

That's exactly my point Dai.
Why can't folk respect that it's OK to have an alternative opinion without resorting to extremes.

The right wing nutter who murdered Jo Cox is where he should be. The anti democratic nutters who refuse to accept the referendum result are causing the rise of the far right.

Of that there is no doubt.

[Gill W]

I totally disagree with this ‘milkshaking’

However, Farage is typical of the extreme language that has been normalised.
.
Lest we forget, he is the one who is going to ‘don khaki, pick up his rifle, and head to the front line’.

That sort of language is not acceptable.

Brexit has emboldened Farage and his adherents.

Of that there is no doubt.

[Manoverboard]

Mobietta and I will be voting for Nigel Farage's Brexit Party tomorrow … of that there is no doubt either