Brexit

[barney]

As will I Moby, although I have little truck with his overall political stance.

Hopefully our government will then bail out and nationalise British Steel, irrespective of EU laws.
I just read that the government had to loan them £153 million to pay EU emissions fines that would have been unnecessary had we left in March.

[oldbluefox]

Meanwhile other countries are producing cheaper steel because they pay no heed to emission controls? If we are serious about saving the planet there must be consistency.

Mr Mrs Foxy will also be voting for Nigel Farage's Brexit party tomorrow, of that there is no doubt.

B******s to the EU!!! (To paraphrase Sir Vince)

[towny44]

Whilst I have already cast my postal vote for the Brexit party I do wonder how we are going to resolve this impasse, even if the Brexit party wins the vote.
There is no way any withdrawal agreement from any new PM will be passed by parliament, I do not want to leave without a deal, but no Brexiteer PM is likely to seek revocation of article 50, and the EU is unlikely to grant any further extension. I suppose it's possible that Amber Rudd, or some other remainer might win the Tory leadership contest, and they would probably be prepared to revoke article 50, which might now be my favoured option having grown tired and weary of the seeming impossibility of our leaving the EU with anything approaching a reasonable leaving deal, never mind the presently unknown trade deal.
I think I might have just surrendered.

[barney]

Rudd cannot become party leader John.

She is in a swing seat in Hastings and only won in 2017 on a recount by a handful of votes.
They could never risk a sitting PM losing her seat at a GE.

The ONLY amendment that has gained a majority so far is the EU deal with an ammended backstop

I conceded months ago, as you well know, that it's unlikely that we will ever leave. Brexit was over on the 29th March.
There might be some proclamation, but in reality, we will still be in.

All that now remains is for us to punish them at the ballot box and a consequence will be more hard/far right parties.

It's as plain as the nose on your face that this would be the consequence but the anti democrats were in denial.
These are the very same people who will be wailing and asking where it all went wrong.

[daib GC]

Rudd cannot become party leader John.

She is in a swing seat in Hastings and only won in 2017 on a recount by a handful of votes.
They could never risk a sitting PM losing her seat at a GE.

The ONLY amendment that has gained a majority so far is the EU deal with an ammended backstop

I conceded months ago, as you well know, that it's unlikely that we will ever leave. Brexit was over on the 29th March.
There might be some proclamation, but in reality, we will still be in.

All that now remains is for us to punish them at the ballot box and a consequence will be more hard/far right parties.

It's as plain as the nose on your face that this would be the consequence but the anti democrats were in denial.
These are the very same people who will be wailing and asking where it all went wrong.

Not difficult to see where it all went wrong.

Cameron called a vote on Leaving Europe with no plan if it passed

May called a General Election

They all forgot about the Irish border. Until it was too late.

[david63]

As I see it

1. We had a referendum where the majority who could be bothered to vote voted to leave.
2. Parliament approved Article 50 to leave.
3. The vast majority of MPs were elected on a leave manifesto.
4. Theresa May et al negotiated a withdrawal agreement.

Those are undeniable facts - whether we all like them and/or agree with them.

We now have the majority of MPs who are being paid by the taxpayer (the very same taxpayer that "instructed" them to leave) £80k a year throwing every possible spanner in the works, some arguably valid but the majority not, to undermine the process.

In the real world if your emplyer (i.e the taxpayer) tells you to do something then you do it or take the other route of finding another employer. I have not noticed a single MP resigning over Brexit (OK some Ministers have resigned from their post but that is easy when you have an £80k salary to fall back on) because they do not agree with it.

I say to all MPs who are opposing Brexit - put up or shut up.

[Quizzical Bob]

As I see it

1. We had a referendum where the majority who could be bothered to vote voted to leave.
2. Parliament approved Article 50 to leave.
3. The vast majority of MPs were elected on a leave manifesto.
4. Theresa May et al negotiated a withdrawal agreement.

Those are undeniable facts - whether we all like them and/or agree with them.

We now have the majority of MPs who are being paid by the taxpayer (the very same taxpayer that "instructed" them to leave) £80k a year throwing every possible spanner in the works, some arguably valid but the majority not, to undermine the process.

In the real world if your emplyer (i.e the taxpayer) tells you to do something then you do it or take the other route of finding another employer. I have not noticed a single MP resigning over Brexit (OK some Ministers have resigned from their post but that is easy when you have an £80k salary to fall back on) because they do not agree with it.

I say to all MPs who are opposing Brexit - put up or shut up.

"A Leave manifesto"

This is cherry-picking of the highest order. As David Smith points out in The Times today:

Two years ago we had a general election in which, as Brexit supporters often say, more than 80 per cent voted for the Conservatives and Labour, which backed Brexit. Yet both parties were very clear about what this meant. The Tory manifesto promised “a smooth, orderly Brexit” and “a deep and special partnership” with the EU. Labour pledged “retaining the benefits” of the single market and customs union. Nobody who garnered serious numbers of votes proposed no-deal.

They weren't 'Leave manifestos'. They were 'do what we can to implement the vote' manifestos.

Besides, You should have learnt by now that a manifesto is only a shopping list, nothing more.

[barney]

I note that you choose to nit pick on one issue, which I disagree with by the way, but seem content to ignore the very simple fact that the leave side got more votes in 2016.

I'm amazed that so many democrats are happy to ignore democracy because of various reasons.

Dress it up any way you like, but it is an undeniable fact.

By the way, noth major parties stood on a clear manifesto of upholding the decision, but of course as you say, manifestos mean nothing, just like the Greens 2015 manifesto in 2015 saying they would call a referendum and Blairs Labour saying the same before winning.

This is from the same people who berate Farage for NOT having a manifesto.

Funny old world innit QB.

[Ray Scully]

[Ray Scully]

I HOPE SOME FIND THIS HELPFUL https://www.remainvoter.com/?fbclid=IwA ... oyxhmF6cBc

[barney]

It will be interesting to see if the Leave parties get more overall seats than the Remain parties.

On one side is Brexit UKIP Conservative and Labour.
On the other side is Libdems Green Change UK SNP Plaid Cymru

What do you think?
All parties claim to speak for the majority.

[Ray Scully]

It will be interesting to see if the Leave parties get more overall seats than the Remain parties.

On one side is Brexit UKIP Conservative and Labour.
On the other side is Libdems Green Change UK SNP Plaid Cymru

What do you think?
All parties claim to speak for the majority.

Nah Barney, just put the facts versus the fantasies to a confirmatory vote eh. you have nothing to lose?

[barney]

Confirm what Ray?

There is no withdrawal agreement to confirm.

It's dead.

The question could of course be Leave Or Remain

My quid would be on leave...... Again.

[Ray Scully]

Confirm what Ray?

There is no withdrawal agreement to confirm.

It's dead.

The question could of course be Leave Or Remain

My quid would be on leave...... Again.

Yep I would be up for that, leave or remain with all public statements being checked by Jeremy Kyle with a lie detector before being released to the voters, oh! and I would up the stakes to a fiver

[Kendhni]

It will be interesting to see if the Leave parties get more overall seats than the Remain parties.

On one side is Brexit UKIP Conservative and Labour.
On the other side is Libdems Green Change UK SNP Plaid Cymru

What do you think?
All parties claim to speak for the majority.

That is a bit of pre-emptive accounting there.

We can agree that on the brexit side there is UKIP, The Brexit Party Ltd., and the DUP
On the Other there is the Libdems, Green, Change UK, SNP, Plaid Cymru

However no conclusion can be drawn about the make up of those that vote for Labour and especially the Conservatives (no matter what they claim to stand for). There could be a mixture of voters from both camps that just would not change - especially since it is known that The Brexit Party Ltd will have taken a significant number of brexiteers away from these two parties.

In fact given that this is a single issue election and there is a one trick pony party standing directly for that issue (The Brexit Party Ltd) then if they cannot muster 50% of the votes then brexit does not represent the 'will of the people' (as brexiteers so often like to call it). The irony is that Farage's actions could be the catalyst for putting the vote back to the people once it is determined what brexit means.

[barney]

You misread it Ken.

I specifically said Parties not voters.

As the Tories and Labour both clearly stood on a public manifesto of honouring the 2016 result, it's safe to assume that they are both officially leave parties.

Well, Jezza clearly is anyway.
Not so sure about May.

[allatc]

Jezza is clearly what exactly ? All he wants is a general election because he believes Labour can win.

And if they do then Brexit will be replaced with the worst of all worlds - a tie into Europe with no say on what happens (a bit like it is already in fact)

[Stephen]

Placed my vote this morning.

[david63]

a tie into Europe with no say on what happens

Probably not as that would mean that he would not be able to nationalise everything!

[Manoverboard]

Our votes are also done n dusted but cannot tell you who we voted for.

ps … Vive La Brexitte

[Quizzical Bob]

I note that you choose to nit pick on one issue, which I disagree with by the way, but seem content to ignore the very simple fact that the leave side got more votes in 2016.

I'm amazed that so many democrats are happy to ignore democracy because of various reasons.

Dress it up any way you like, but it is an undeniable fact.

By the way, noth major parties stood on a clear manifesto of upholding the decision, but of course as you say, manifestos mean nothing, just like the Greens 2015 manifesto in 2015 saying they would call a referendum and Blairs Labour saying the same before winning.

This is from the same people who berate Farage for NOT having a manifesto.

Funny old world innit QB.

Ignore democracy? There was no madate from the vote, no matter what people thought that they were voting for.
Have a read of the Parliament Commons Briefing Paper for the Referendum enabling Act, in particular Section 5 on page 25:

(Briefing Paper 07212, 3rd June 2015)

"This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s
continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of
2017.
It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to
implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a
vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of
referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the
electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in
its policy decisions."

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... fullreport
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... P-7212.pdf

Farage does not have a manifesto because he is running a business with the intention of making a lot of money for himself and for his multi-millionaire backers. Farage does not have one thing positive to propose. Try asking him about his policies on the NHS, the exchange rate, defence, education...

[barney]

I fear that like others, you have completely missed the point of the Brexit Party QB.

Had Brexit been enacted, they would not exist.

They will cease to exist if we ever leave the EU, except if there is mass defection from the Tories.

There is a possibility that buoyed by these elections, they may take on parliament.

36 Tory defections would make them the third largest party and the entitlement to public funding.

The rise of the right is a direct consequence of parliament not wishing to see through a legitimate mandate.

[towny44]

I note that you choose to nit pick on one issue, which I disagree with by the way, but seem content to ignore the very simple fact that the leave side got more votes in 2016.

I'm amazed that so many democrats are happy to ignore democracy because of various reasons.

Dress it up any way you like, but it is an undeniable fact.

By the way, noth major parties stood on a clear manifesto of upholding the decision, but of course as you say, manifestos mean nothing, just like the Greens 2015 manifesto in 2015 saying they would call a referendum and Blairs Labour saying the same before winning.

This is from the same people who berate Farage for NOT having a manifesto.

Funny old world innit QB.

Ignore democracy? There was no madate from the vote, no matter what people thought that they were voting for.
Have a read of the Parliament Commons Briefing Paper for the Referendum enabling Act, in particular Section 5 on page 25:

(Briefing Paper 07212, 3rd June 2015)

"This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s
continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of
2017.
It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to
implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a
vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of
referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the
electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in
its policy decisions."

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... fullreport
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... P-7212.pdf

Farage does not have a manifesto because he is running a business with the intention of making a lot of money for himself and for his multi-millionaire backers. Farage does not have one thing positive to propose. Try asking him about his policies on the NHS, the exchange rate, defence, education...

I ,am a bit confused QB, how is Farage going to make money for his backers, I can understand how he might make money for himself from his backers, but where does he have his money tree to make it for them?

[Quizzical Bob]

Farage does not have a manifesto because he is running a business with the intention of making a lot of money for himself and for his multi-millionaire backers. Farage does not have one thing positive to propose. Try asking him about his policies on the NHS, the exchange rate, defence, education...

I ,am a bit confused QB, how is Farage going to make money for his backers, I can understand how he might make money for himself from his backers, but where does he have his money tree to make it for them?
[/quote]

It's called 'Disaster Capitalism'. Causing big upheavals so as to make money out of the ensuing chaos. Drive down the values of companies and then pick them up on the cheap. Hedge funds made a killing out of the referendum.

https://thefinanser.com/2018/07/much-ni ... exit.html/

"One person with questions still to answer is Farage, a former commodities broker who also went to work for a London currency trading company after he moved into politics. He twice told the world on election night that Leave had likely lost, when he had information suggesting his side had actually won. He also has changed his story about who told him what regarding that very valuable piece of information."

Disaster Capitalism:
(4th July 2016) https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... back-state

And ask yourself why Arron Banks gave the leave campaign over £8m, the largest donation in British Politics.

A British parliamentary committee report concluded; "Arron Banks is believed to have donated £8.4m to the Leave campaign, the largest political donation in British politics, but it is unclear from where he obtained that amount of money"; "He failed to satisfy us that his own donations had, in fact, come from sources within the UK."

[Quizzical Bob]

I fear that like others, you have completely missed the point of the Brexit Party QB.

Had Brexit been enacted, they would not exist.

They will cease to exist if we ever leave the EU, except if there is mass defection from the Tories.

There is a possibility that buoyed by these elections, they may take on parliament.

36 Tory defections would make them the third largest party and the entitlement to public funding.

The rise of the right is a direct consequence of parliament not wishing to see through a legitimate mandate.

There was no mandatae. See below.

And it's not a political party, it's a limited company, there are no members and no constitution for its leadership or ruling council.