Current Affairs

[screwy]

I fear all this is just playing into the hands of the far right.

[Gill W]

It seems this statue has been controversial for many years. A lot of people in Bristol have thought this statue is inappropriate, as 19000 people died on Edward Colsten’s slaving ships and there have been many calls for it to be taken down. A school with his name on has been renamed, and the Colsten Hall is shortly going to be renamed.

It doesn’t make what happened today right, but adds a little context.

A lot of people .... how many exactly and why pick on just one Captain ?

Their actions will made a few high 'n' mighty Holier-than-thou snowflakes feel good about themselves but having trashed some of Bristol's Heritage I think they are truly pathetic.

One Captain of many who made a fortune along with others in the Americas and Africa but it should also be noted that Bristol exists only because of this trade. When slavery was abolished the slaves were free but had nowhere to go so were enslaved by their fellow Africans. That aspect hardly gets a mention does it ?

ps ... there's a TV program running about a house that was owned by several Sea Captains in Bristol ...

It's entitled ' A House through Time, on BBC2 but catch up will be required.
.

As Towny said he wasn’t a sea captain. Apparently the debate about this statue has been going on for a long time in Bristol. I’ve already said that Bristol was built on the slave trade.



No need for catch up TV for my viewing of a House Though Time. I watch it each week, and have watched the previous two series. I find it an excellent way to present social history.

Here’s David Olusoga’s view of the incident

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bri ... id-4202819

[Gill W]

Excellent programme. Very good presenter.

Who's ancesters were from prime slave territory, as in Nigeria.

Indeed, and as he has lived in Bristol for 20 years, it makes him uniquely well qualified to comment on this

[Gill W]

Unfortunately no one accepts that these merchants only get rich by providing what the populace want, which is the very best goods at the cheapest price. But blaming society in general is rather too woolly for the activists, much better to focus on an individual instead.

The ‘goods’ were human beings

[Manoverboard]

As Towny said he wasn’t a sea captain ....

More haste less speed I always say

What Towny ' actually ' said was ... " He wasn't a Captain Moby who got his hands dirty .... "

Re-read #4172 perhaps ?

Either way but let us agree that he was a ' slave trader '
.

[screwy]

What happened with slavery happened a long time ago and had nothing to do with me.
I will not ‘Cow Tow’ and get down on my knee and apologise for something I have not done. Just how many times must we apologise for things that happened centuries ago....Yes it hurts people but you can’t turn back the clock.
What hurts me more is the Scumbags trying to set fire to the flags on the Cenotaph.Not too much said about that I notice. I’m sure someone will complain about this...

[barney]

Unfortunately no one accepts that these merchants only get rich by providing what the populace want, which is the very best goods at the cheapest price. But blaming society in general is rather too woolly for the activists, much better to focus on an individual instead.

The ‘goods’ were human beings

To put into social context, the slave trade was not illegal at the time and was a recognised business.

As the program describes, the ships sailed to Africa, bought the slaves from African slavers, transported them to the new world and sold them to the planation owners, as any other commodity.

By today's standards, this is totally abhorrent but they were not governed by today's standards.

Virtually every stately home in the country was built on slave money.
Will you now boycott them?
What about a beautiful picture hanging in the National gallery ?
Burn it because it was donated by someone who made their fortune transporting slaves?

Why not burn a few books while we are at it.

How about a new Bonfire of the Vanities.
Who will be the modern day Savonarola ?

Maybe the mob can decide.

History is history.
It cannot be unwritten.

[Manoverboard]

Great post ' Barney '

[screwy]

I concur.

[Onelife]

Whilst l don't see this as the right time to be taking to the streets (for obvious reasons) the majority have done so in a peaceful manner. As with all protests there are always going to be those who take things way to far which of course detracts from the purpose of the protest.

I was listening to the Black Mayor of Bristol this morning he was saying the action of removing the statue of Colston was wrong but had for many years found the statue distasteful in what it represents. In the same vain perhaps that's why Germany has no statues depicting the part Nazisum played in the history of Germany?

[Ray B]

How does it help for people to understand what the protesters are trying to achieve when a Black man climbs the Cenotaph in London and try to set fire to OUR Union flag, the Cenotaph, remembering all those who paid the ultimate sacrifice to freedom, so these thugs can protest and show disrespect.

[Onelife]

How does it help for people to understand what the protesters are trying to achieve when a Black man climbs the Cenotaph in London and try to set fire to OUR Union flag, the Cenotaph, remembering all those who paid the ultimate sacrifice to freedom, so these thugs can protest and show disrespect.

None whatsoever.....He should be shiped back to the colonies to see how lucky he his.

[Gill W]

As Towny said he wasn’t a sea captain ....

More haste less speed I always say

What Towny ' actually ' said was ... " He wasn't a Captain Moby who got his hands dirty .... "

Re-read #4172 perhaps ?

Either way but let us agree that he was a ' slave trader '
.

I was trying not to steal Towny’s thunder.

However, I’ll use my own words for clarity.

He was not a sea captain. He was a merchant and slave trader.

What do you think of Davis Olusoga’s opinion?

[Manoverboard]

I was trying not to steal Towny’s thunder.

Rubbish, you didn't spot your mistake so be brave and own up

He was not a sea captain. He was a merchant and slave trader.

Which is what I belatedly said

What do you think of Davis Olusoga’s opinion?

That is far more difficult because my only exposure to him is via the TV programs. Can only respond by saying that I readily accept every word that he says and that I am entirely comfortable with the balance that he has thus far achieved within his narrations.

[Gill W]

Unfortunately no one accepts that these merchants only get rich by providing what the populace want, which is the very best goods at the cheapest price. But blaming society in general is rather too woolly for the activists, much better to focus on an individual instead.

The ‘goods’ were human beings

To put into social context, the slave trade was not illegal at the time and was a recognised business.

As the program describes, the ships sailed to Africa, bought the slaves from African slavers, transported them to the new world and sold them to the planation owners, as any other commodity.

By today's standards, this is totally abhorrent but they were not governed by today's standards.

Virtually every stately home in the country was built on slave money.
Will you now boycott them?
What about a beautiful picture hanging in the National gallery ?
Burn it because it was donated by someone who made their fortune transporting slaves?

Why not burn a few books while we are at it.

How about a new Bonfire of the Vanities.
Who will be the modern day Savonarola ?

Maybe the mob can decide.

History is history.
It cannot be unwritten.

Edward Colsten died in 1721.

The slave trade was abolished in 1807.

The statue is not a contemporary statue, it was erected in 1895, a time when human trafficking had been illegal for 88 years.

So the high Victorians of Bristol put a statue up to a person who profited from a trade that was already considered to be wrong.

That’s what the issue is - it’s what the statue represents

As David Olusoga says, the statue should have been in a museum years ago - we need to learn from history, Not rewrite it or airbrush it out.

[towny44]

Unfortunately no one accepts that these merchants only get rich by providing what the populace want, which is the very best goods at the cheapest price. But blaming society in general is rather too woolly for the activists, much better to focus on an individual instead.

The ‘goods’ were human beings

You are right Gill and I was certainly not trying to make light of this evil trade.
However it was the final goods of cotton and sugar that this cheap labour produced that I was comparing to the present day high fashion garments that are produced from cheap far East labour in sweat shops.
It is our consumerism that is the driver leading to both of these, so we should also accept societies own role in these iniquities.

[Gill W]

I was trying not to steal Towny’s thunder.

Rubbish, you didn't spot your mistake so be brave and own up

He was not a sea captain. He was a merchant and slave trader.

Which is what I belatedly said

What do you think of Davis Olusoga’s opinion?

That is far more difficult because my only exposure to him is via the TV programs. Can only respond by saying that I readily accept every word that he says and that I am entirely comfortable with the balance that he has thus far achieved within his narrations.

It I make a mistake I will put my hands up. Fine I you don’t believe me, but I was being genuine.

I agree with what you said about David Olsusoga, a very balanced opinion - I agree with what he says.

[Gill W]

How does it help for people to understand what the protesters are trying to achieve when a Black man climbs the Cenotaph in London and try to set fire to OUR Union flag, the Cenotaph, remembering all those who paid the ultimate sacrifice to freedom, so these thugs can protest and show disrespect.

I don’t have any truck with flag burning of any description.

However, I’m a little uncomfortable with the idea that the flag is ‘OUR’ flag. The person that set fire to the flag is almost certainly British, so it’s his flag as well.

Not that it makes any sense to burn his own flag, but there you go

[Stephen]

How does it help for people to understand what the protesters are trying to achieve when a Black man climbs the Cenotaph in London and try to set fire to OUR Union flag, the Cenotaph, remembering all those who paid the ultimate sacrifice to freedom, so these thugs can protest and show disrespect.

None whatsoever.....He should be shiped back to the colonies to see how lucky he his.

Why waste a travel ticket. Just shoot on sight.

[Mervyn and Trish]

A while ago the question was asked why we could only give a range for the reproduction rate R, while Germany was reported to be quoting it to two decimal places. This weekend we have the answer. In fact two of them.

Firstly in an article carried by the BBC website they say:
“There is no perfect way of measuring R. The government takes advice from multiple modelling groups, which all estimate the figure from different angles. Some give more positive, others more negative, views on R.”
So for one thing either Germany has plumped for one of the several ways of estimating R, or they have taken an average for publication. Either way, to publish a figure to two decimal places is actually rather misleading and to give a range is more realistic.

Secondly an article in the Mail quoted R as 1.01 in the Northwest, 0.89 in the North East and Yorkshire, 0.90 in the Midlands, 0.94 in the East of England, 0.95 in London, 1.00 in the South West and 0.97 in the South East. And we’ve also been told there are variations between settings such as care homes, hospital and the wider community.
So to quote a single figure for the whole country, as Germany appears to be doing, would seem to be a gross over simplification. Our system of quoting a range seems to be more relevant and reasonable.

I also note a quote from this forum on 17th May.

By June, I think we are more than likely going to see a rise in cases. Not just because of yesterday’s protest, but because of general back to work message. The R is close to 1 anyway, it won’t take much to push it above 1. We don’t have a track and trace system in place, so if it does go over 1, they can’t take swift action to reduce the figure.
Last weekend, the R was promoted as all important. I get the impression they are playing it down now, so they are hoping we will have forgotten about it by June!

We are now more than a week into June and neither has happened yet.

[Gill W]

A while ago the question was asked why we could only give a range for the reproduction rate R, while Germany was reported to be quoting it to two decimal places. This weekend we have the answer. In fact two of them.

Firstly in an article carried by the BBC website they say:
“There is no perfect way of measuring R. The government takes advice from multiple modelling groups, which all estimate the figure from different angles. Some give more positive, others more negative, views on R.”
So for one thing either Germany has plumped for one of the several ways of estimating R, or they have taken an average for publication. Either way, to publish a figure to two decimal places is actually rather misleading and to give a range is more realistic.

Secondly an article in the Mail quoted R as 1.01 in the Northwest, 0.89 in the North East and Yorkshire, 0.90 in the Midlands, 0.94 in the East of England, 0.95 in London, 1.00 in the South West and 0.97 in the South East. And we’ve also been told there are variations between settings such as care homes, hospital and the wider community.
So to quote a single figure for the whole country, as Germany appears to be doing, would seem to be a gross over simplification. Our system of quoting a range seems to be more relevant and reasonable.

I also note a quote from this forum on 17th May.

By June, I think we are more than likely going to see a rise in cases. Not just because of yesterday’s protest, but because of general back to work message. The R is close to 1 anyway, it won’t take much to push it above 1. We don’t have a track and trace system in place, so if it does go over 1, they can’t take swift action to reduce the figure.
Last weekend, the R was promoted as all important. I get the impression they are playing it down now, so they are hoping we will have forgotten about it by June!

We are now more than a week into June and neither has happened yet.

That's good though, isn't it?

I'd hope that you didn't drag up an old post of mine for some sort of points scoring exercise, but it's a good opportunity to review what I said.

The R is even closer to 1 than it was on 17th May 2019. From memory, it was something like 0.7 to 0.9. From the figures you have provided it's now perilously close to 1 in all areas, and indeed above 1 in two arears. Therefore, I may well have been correct to say it wouldn't take much to push it above 1. It has certainly increased, and could increase more. Perhaps it's still too early to judge whether my opinion was 'right' or wrong'.

We now have a track and trace system in place, but it is not fully operational yet. Apparently, operation at 'world class' level is still three to four months away.

I had the sense that, at some point, they'd start ignoring their own guidelines. I thought it might be in relation to the R, but it turns out that it's to do with the their Alert System. We are still at Alert level 4, but they are acting as if it was alert level 3, and are easing the lockdown. So I wasn't right about the R, but my sense that they' wouldn't stick to that stated plan wasn't far off.

So I think my tweet of 17th May wasn't too far off the mark.

There's still time for the R to go over 1, and we'll have to see what happens - will they lock us down again, or will they carry on easing lockdown. Time will tell. My sense is they'll do the latter.

I'm not too fussed about Germany, I'm concentrating more on the UK

[Onelife]

Well I’m happy to give you 7/10.... your predictions, whilst not as good as mine are still in the ballpark… with, I have to say, plenty of time to playout.

[screwy]

Could someone please explain to me why i am a Priveliged White Male.?

[oldbluefox]

The current R figure nationally is between 0.7 and 0.9 with two regions, the south west and the north west recording 1.0 and 1.1 so Gill's prediction does not ring true, and since these figures were published only last week neither does her accusation that " they are playing it down now, so they are hoping we will have forgotten about it by June!"
Sorry Gill I think I will stick to Onelife's predictions in future, dodgy though they are.

[oldbluefox]

Could someone please explain to me why i am a Priveliged White Male.?

You know me and Mob and we are still talking to you!!!