Life After Brexit

[Kendhni]

Oh dear!
I admire your tenacity.
It’s all irrelevant now as the U.K. has formally left the EU.
I personally would never have agreed the WA and would have left at the time without it.
The WA ends this year with the end of the transition period.Thank God.
Deal or not, we’ve got our country back and dodged a bullet by not having to prop up other EU nations.
We could include some of them on our foreign aid program.

In a way I agree with you, the only thing now is that the Brexit leadership will be judged on meeting the contract they made with the British people. I am even willing to forgive point 9 of their contract and will even give them until Dec 31st to come up with the many new trade deals they promised would be ready on the day we left (accepting they totally missed the original milestone). I look forward to the promised additional £350million per week for the NHS and the 'exact same benefits' that we would have got if we had have remained.

It is their contract, their words and I will judge the success and their competence based on them delivering their written contract with the British people.

I fear however people are going to wake up to a Britain that is not as prosperous as it once was - and no brexiteer has responded to that concern in any meaningful or credible manner (even Minford with his highly manipulated numbers failed). In fact we were told by a multi-millionaire brexiteer 'it was never about the money' (not what he said during the campaign but probably much closer to the truth).

I’m not too sure they are too concerned about whether you judge them successful or not.

There was a vote.
The Conservatives, Labour, Liberals, Greens, CBI and big business all lobbied for remain.
They lost.
The Tories then stood on a manifesto of getting Brexit completed. They won a massive majority.
The rest is irrelevant.
Some ( maybe you) are still fighting a war that’s over.

Are you scared that the brexiteer leadership do not have the competence or ability to deliver on their promises to the British people?
Are you scared that you will actually find out their contract with the british people was actually nothing more than lies and bluster?
Or will the brexit leadership do what it does best, when their backs are against the wall they just move the goalposts again.

It is simple, they either deliver on their contract or they have failed - the only question is just how much failure will those totally invested in the brexit lies actually tolerate before they realise they were duped, or will they accept such incredibly low standards of honesty and integrity from those that represent them. I suspect many of the brexit fanatics have incredibly low expectations from their disorganised blustering leadership - all they will need to fall back in line is another meaningless soundbite ... I suggest Johnson should go with 'Yes but ... no but ... yes but' - quite apt.

[towny44]

In a way I agree with you, the only thing now is that the Brexit leadership will be judged on meeting the contract they made with the British people. I am even willing to forgive point 9 of their contract and will even give them until Dec 31st to come up with the many new trade deals they promised would be ready on the day we left (accepting they totally missed the original milestone). I look forward to the promised additional £350million per week for the NHS and the 'exact same benefits' that we would have got if we had have remained.

It is their contract, their words and I will judge the success and their competence based on them delivering their written contract with the British people.

I fear however people are going to wake up to a Britain that is not as prosperous as it once was - and no brexiteer has responded to that concern in any meaningful or credible manner (even Minford with his highly manipulated numbers failed). In fact we were told by a multi-millionaire brexiteer 'it was never about the money' (not what he said during the campaign but probably much closer to the truth).

I’m not too sure they are too concerned about whether you judge them successful or not.

There was a vote.
The Conservatives, Labour, Liberals, Greens, CBI and big business all lobbied for remain.
They lost.
The Tories then stood on a manifesto of getting Brexit completed. They won a massive majority.
The rest is irrelevant.
Some ( maybe you) are still fighting a war that’s over.

Are you scared that the brexiteer leadership do not have the competence or ability to deliver on their promises to the British people?
Are you scared that you will actually find out their contract with the british people was actually nothing more than lies and bluster?
Or will the brexit leadership do what it does best, when their backs are against the wall they just move the goalposts again.

It is simple, they either deliver on their contract or they have failed - the only question is just how much failure will those totally invested in the brexit lies actually tolerate before they realise they were duped, or will they accept such incredibly low standards of honesty and integrity from those that represent them. I suspect many of the brexit fanatics have incredibly low expectations from their disorganised blustering leadership - all they will need to fall back in line is another meaningless soundbite ... I suggest Johnson should go with 'Yes but ... no but ... yes but' - quite apt.

The Brexiteers promise was to take us out of the EU, as far as I can see that promise has been fulfilled. Would I prefer to see a trade deal with the EU, yes I would, if there is no trade deal is that failure, no it's not.

[barney]

In a way I agree with you, the only thing now is that the Brexit leadership will be judged on meeting the contract they made with the British people. I am even willing to forgive point 9 of their contract and will even give them until Dec 31st to come up with the many new trade deals they promised would be ready on the day we left (accepting they totally missed the original milestone). I look forward to the promised additional £350million per week for the NHS and the 'exact same benefits' that we would have got if we had have remained.

It is their contract, their words and I will judge the success and their competence based on them delivering their written contract with the British people.

I fear however people are going to wake up to a Britain that is not as prosperous as it once was - and no brexiteer has responded to that concern in any meaningful or credible manner (even Minford with his highly manipulated numbers failed). In fact we were told by a multi-millionaire brexiteer 'it was never about the money' (not what he said during the campaign but probably much closer to the truth).

I’m not too sure they are too concerned about whether you judge them successful or not.

There was a vote.
The Conservatives, Labour, Liberals, Greens, CBI and big business all lobbied for remain.
They lost.
The Tories then stood on a manifesto of getting Brexit completed. They won a massive majority.
The rest is irrelevant.
Some ( maybe you) are still fighting a war that’s over.

Are you scared that the brexiteer leadership do not have the competence or ability to deliver on their promises to the British people?
Are you scared that you will actually find out their contract with the british people was actually nothing more than lies and bluster?
Or will the brexit leadership do what it does best, when their backs are against the wall they just move the goalposts again.

It is simple, they either deliver on their contract or they have failed - the only question is just how much failure will those totally invested in the brexit lies actually tolerate before they realise they were duped, or will they accept such incredibly low standards of honesty and integrity from those that represent them. I suspect many of the brexit fanatics have incredibly low expectations from their disorganised blustering leadership - all they will need to fall back in line is another meaningless soundbite ... I suggest Johnson should go with 'Yes but ... no but ... yes but' - quite apt.

Ok, I’ll start with the statement that I, along with millions of others am a Labour supporting leaver.
I’m not actually scared of any of it
Deal or no deal, life will go on.
We’ve had four years to get ready for it.
My opinion has always been that leaving the Eu will not be a good as some think and not as bad as others think.
Democracy must rule or life as we knew it is over.
Anti democrats have done their very best to overturn the legitimate result and have very fortunately failed.
Like it or not, the vote was to leave.

But but but but..... Russia, ignorance, racism, short planks etc .......

[Kendhni]

I’m not too sure they are too concerned about whether you judge them successful or not.

There was a vote.
The Conservatives, Labour, Liberals, Greens, CBI and big business all lobbied for remain.
They lost.
The Tories then stood on a manifesto of getting Brexit completed. They won a massive majority.
The rest is irrelevant.
Some ( maybe you) are still fighting a war that’s over.

Are you scared that the brexiteer leadership do not have the competence or ability to deliver on their promises to the British people?
Are you scared that you will actually find out their contract with the british people was actually nothing more than lies and bluster?
Or will the brexit leadership do what it does best, when their backs are against the wall they just move the goalposts again.

It is simple, they either deliver on their contract or they have failed - the only question is just how much failure will those totally invested in the brexit lies actually tolerate before they realise they were duped, or will they accept such incredibly low standards of honesty and integrity from those that represent them. I suspect many of the brexit fanatics have incredibly low expectations from their disorganised blustering leadership - all they will need to fall back in line is another meaningless soundbite ... I suggest Johnson should go with 'Yes but ... no but ... yes but' - quite apt.

The Brexiteers promise was to take us out of the EU, as far as I can see that promise has been fulfilled. Would I prefer to see a trade deal with the EU, yes I would, if there is no trade deal is that failure, no it's not.

Sorry Towny you are way out of date, that was one small aspect of the 'contract' that Johnson represented there are many others including a certain £350million per week for the NHS.

[towny44]

Ken, I think I know best what I voted for, and from all I read and see on the news, the govt are trying to achieve what I voted for. I knew that it would be difficult to forge an agreement with the EU, but the govt are doing exactly what I wanted, a clean break without any strings attached. As for the £300m for the NHS, that ro me was always intended to show what we could do with the money we paid into the EU, not a promise and not a contract, just election window dressing, the counter to the project fear campaign from the remain camp.

[barney]

Ken, I think I know best what I voted for, and from all I read and see on the news, the govt are trying to achieve what I voted for. I knew that it would be difficult to forge an agreement with the EU, but the govt are doing exactly what I wanted, a clean break without any strings attached. As for the £300m for the NHS, that ro me was always intended to show what we could do with the money we paid into the EU, not a promise and not a contract, just election window dressing, the counter to the project fear campaign from the remain camp.

There is of course the possibility that we are so stupid that we don’t actually realise how stupid we are John

[Manoverboard]

It was a cunning Baldrick plan to be stupid ... and in spite of warnings from Ken and Co I happily voted for it and would do so again.

Stupid, stupid, stupid
.

[barney]

It was a cunning Baldrick plan to be stupid ... and in spite of warnings from Ken and Co I happily voted for it and would do so again.

Stupid, stupid, stupid
.

What a stupid thing to say

[Kendhni]

Ken, I think I know best what I voted for, and from all I read and see on the news, the govt are trying to achieve what I voted for. I knew that it would be difficult to forge an agreement with the EU, but the govt are doing exactly what I wanted, a clean break without any strings attached. As for the £300m for the NHS, that ro me was always intended to show what we could do with the money we paid into the EU, not a promise and not a contract, just election window dressing, the counter to the project fear campaign from the remain camp.

John interpretation and what you make up in your own mind is totally and utterly irrelevant.
The brexit leadership created the contract, it is there for everyone to see in black and white, they signed it with a set of promises on what they would deliver for all the British people. I know some people have such low standards that they will use weasily words and kowtow to incompetence from their leaders, but some of us have higher standards and expect the government to deliver what it has promised ... this goes way beyond mealy mouthed promises one expects in a manifesto. I know there is a possibility that the contract is meaningless and was just a pack of lies to scam the British people into voting for what the authors wanted, but so far no government official has admitted to this.

The current track record for Johnson's government on his contract is currently running at 6 failures and 4 'wait and see' - I am struggling to see how such crass incompetence and failure can instil confidence for the future.

PS: Whenever we are ever offered the choice of voting for 'a clean break without any strings attached' that could be interesting - however that option has never been put directly to the people. The closest was in the last general election when we had the option of the May/Johnson deal (being offered by Johnson) and no deal (being offered by Farage's company 'The Brexit Party Ltd'). Based on those that voted for either of these options, then your vote for 'a clean break without any strings attached' got soundly thrashed with the overwhelming majority, 95%, voting for the May/Johnson 'oven ready' deal.

[barney]

What an interesting interpretation of the facts.

Remember the stories of the Japanese fighters on islands who couldn’t admit that the war was over.

[towny44]

What an interesting interpretation of the facts.

Remember the stories of the Japanese fighters on islands who couldn’t admit that the war was over.

I agree but I do rather object to Ken accusing me of having low standards. And where on earth has he invented this so called Brexit contract that was offered, which presumably he attributes to Farages party, but then adds that the electorate voted for the May/Johnson watered down version.
Talk about flip flopping about, Ken clearly takes the gold medal for that.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Ken, I think I know best what I voted for, and from all I read and see on the news, the govt are trying to achieve what I voted for. I knew that it would be difficult to forge an agreement with the EU, but the govt are doing exactly what I wanted, a clean break without any strings attached. As for the £300m for the NHS, that ro me was always intended to show what we could do with the money we paid into the EU, not a promise and not a contract, just election window dressing, the counter to the project fear campaign from the remain camp.

John interpretation and what you make up in your own mind is totally and utterly irrelevant.
The brexit leadership created the contract, it is there for everyone to see in black and white, they signed it with a set of promises on what they would deliver for all the British people. I know some people have such low standards that they will use weasily words and kowtow to incompetence from their leaders, but some of us have higher standards and expect the government to deliver what it has promised ... this goes way beyond mealy mouthed promises one expects in a manifesto. I know there is a possibility that the contract is meaningless and was just a pack of lies to scam the British people into voting for what the authors wanted, but so far no government official has admitted to this.

The current track record for Johnson's government on his contract is currently running at 6 failures and 4 'wait and see' - I am struggling to see how such crass incompetence and failure can instil confidence for the future.

PS: Whenever we are ever offered the choice of voting for 'a clean break without any strings attached' that could be interesting - however that option has never been put directly to the people. The closest was in the last general election when we had the option of the May/Johnson deal (being offered by Johnson) and no deal (being offered by Farage's company 'The Brexit Party Ltd'). Based on those that voted for either of these options, then your vote for 'a clean break without any strings attached' got soundly thrashed with the overwhelming majority, 95%, voting for the May/Johnson 'oven ready' deal.

You must have been disappointed all your life Ken. I don't remember any government that has ever done that.

[Kendhni]

What an interesting interpretation of the facts.

Remember the stories of the Japanese fighters on islands who couldn’t admit that the war was over.

I agree but I do rather object to Ken accusing me of having low standards. And where on earth has he invented this so called Brexit contract that was offered, which presumably he attributes to Farages party, but then adds that the electorate voted for the May/Johnson watered down version.
Talk about flip flopping about, Ken clearly takes the gold medal for that.

If you would take the time to actually learn what you were voting for (not what you think/claim you were voting for) you would know all about the brexit contract. I even linked to it one of my earlier posts.

[towny44]

What an interesting interpretation of the facts.

Remember the stories of the Japanese fighters on islands who couldn’t admit that the war was over.

I agree but I do rather object to Ken accusing me of having low standards. And where on earth has he invented this so called Brexit contract that was offered, which presumably he attributes to Farages party, but then adds that the electorate voted for the May/Johnson watered down version.
Talk about flip flopping about, Ken clearly takes the gold medal for that.

If you would take the time to actually learn what you were voting for (not what you think/claim you were voting for) you would know all about the brexit contract. I even linked to it one of my earlier posts.

Ken I know who I voted for, why I voted for them and what I wanted them to strive for. Other people perhaps voted for something else, but I was content with what I wanted. Nothing is ever going to be black and white, but don't try to tell me that I made the wrong choice when you clearly have no idea what my choices might be.

[barney]

What an interesting interpretation of the facts.

Remember the stories of the Japanese fighters on islands who couldn’t admit that the war was over.

I agree but I do rather object to Ken accusing me of having low standards. And where on earth has he invented this so called Brexit contract that was offered, which presumably he attributes to Farages party, but then adds that the electorate voted for the May/Johnson watered down version.
Talk about flip flopping about, Ken clearly takes the gold medal for that.

If you would take the time to actually learn what you were voting for (not what you think/claim you were voting for) you would know all about the brexit contract. I even linked to it one of my earlier posts.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
What you are not entitled to is your own facts.
There is no contract.
If you seriously believe that everything a politician says forms a contract then you are not only mistaken but somewhat deluded.
The reason that 95% (your figure) voted for Johnson's Brexit over Farage's is because Farage stood down his candidates.
Whatever the actual statistics, there is no doubting that the anti Brexit parties got a kicking.
Libdems actually lost their leader over it.
The new Libdem leader has accepted that the nation has moved on.
Why can't you ?

[barney]

I'll give you one current example of how reasonable the EU are being during these so called negotiations.
It's with reference to cabotage in haulage.

The UK have requested that UK hauliers continue with the right to cross EU territory (say to Turkey) and continue to be allowed to collect and drop off in the EU.
The EU have rejected this request on the grounds of you cannot continue with full access once you've left.
OK, you may think, that sounds reasonable as we have left.

So, the UK say, well, if we cannot have access to your territory, then we may reciprocate, in other words not giving EU trucks the same access as they had previously in the UK.
Again that sounds reasonable.

But, what about Ireland, who use the UK as a land bridge to their European markets?
Oh! say Brussels, that must stay.
That would be considered very hostile should the UK implement this.
What about Irish trucks picking up in the UK to continue on to Europe.
Oh! that must stay as well, says Brussels.

This is why the EU need to realise that it's a negotiation, not a one way street.
Until they understand that things are now different and it's in both parties benefit to sort out an arrangement, then it does look like no deal is almost inevitable.
If there is no agreement, the blame will lie firmly in Brussels.

[Mervyn and Trish]

They don't seem to grasp we will be an independent country. They didn't demand access to Canada's fishing waters or a level playing field as part of the deal with them so why are we different?

And if they continue to insist on fishing rights and a level playing field as the price of a deal then there will likely be no deal. And no deal means no fishing rights and no level playing field. Cutting off nose to spite face?

They need to understand that will be the new status quo. If they want it to be otherwise they need to offer us something substantial in return.

[towny44]

They don't seem to grasp we will be an independent country. They didn't demand access to Canada's fishing waters or a level playing field as part of the deal with them so why are we different?

And if they continue to insist on fishing rights and a level playing field as the price of a deal then there will likely be no deal. And no deal means no fishing rights and no level playing field. Cutting off nose to spite face?

They need to understand that will be the new status quo. If they want it to be otherwise they need to offer us something substantial in return.

Like maybe paying us billions of pounds/euros a year for the right to fish our waters and use our motorways to bring in goods for the UK or Eire. If the fee is big enough maybe we should consider letting them have a free trade deal with us?

[Kendhni]

I am dumbfounded .... 4 years down the line and brexiteers are now openly admitting that they didn't bother reading what they were actually voting for - they just made something up in their own mind ... and totally ignored what the government told them they were actually voting for. Shows the true state and how disengaged the British electorate is.

[Kendhni]

I'll give you one current example of how reasonable the EU are being during these so called negotiations.
It's with reference to cabotage in haulage.

The UK have requested that UK hauliers continue with the right to cross EU territory (say to Turkey) and continue to be allowed to collect and drop off in the EU.
The EU have rejected this request on the grounds of you cannot continue with full access once you've left.
OK, you may think, that sounds reasonable as we have left.

So, the UK say, well, if we cannot have access to your territory, then we may reciprocate, in other words not giving EU trucks the same access as they had previously in the UK.
Again that sounds reasonable.

But, what about Ireland, who use the UK as a land bridge to their European markets?
Oh! say Brussels, that must stay.
That would be considered very hostile should the UK implement this.
What about Irish trucks picking up in the UK to continue on to Europe.
Oh! that must stay as well, says Brussels.

This is why the EU need to realise that it's a negotiation, not a one way street.
Until they understand that things are now different and it's in both parties benefit to sort out an arrangement, then it does look like no deal is almost inevitable.
If there is no agreement, the blame will lie firmly in Brussels.

I am not familiar with this and do not have time to read up on it at the minute. But looking at your past history on 'facts' I would suggest you have just placed a very selective interpretation of what the reality actually is. I will await someone to explain it to me properly and factually.

[Kendhni]

They don't seem to grasp we will be an independent country. They didn't demand access to Canada's fishing waters or a level playing field as part of the deal with them so why are we different?

And if they continue to insist on fishing rights and a level playing field as the price of a deal then there will likely be no deal. And no deal means no fishing rights and no level playing field. Cutting off nose to spite face?

They need to understand that will be the new status quo. If they want it to be otherwise they need to offer us something substantial in return.

Like maybe paying us billions of pounds/euros a year for the right to fish our waters and use our motorways to bring in goods for the UK or Eire. If the fee is big enough maybe we should consider letting them have a free trade deal with us?

Strictly speaking the fishermen do pay significant sums to the UK for fishing in their waters already. All that quota that the UK has chosen to sell to overseas fishermen raises about half (TBV) of the 0.7% of GDP that fishing accounts for within the UK.

Your transport comment is interesting and something the UK needs to be a little bit careful on. At the minutes many of the transport routes are through mainland UK and the UK does, and will continue, to make revenue out of this. However, Ireland is already setting up direct routes between itself and the EU - that will only result in a loss of revenue to the UK. However, overall I would like to think that trade between the UK and Ireland will continue

[Mervyn and Trish]

I am dumbfounded .... 4 years down the line and brexiteers are now openly admitting that they didn't bother reading what they were actually voting for - they just made something up in their own mind ... and totally ignored what the government told them they were actually voting for. Shows the true state and how disengaged the British electorate is.

I am dumfounded .... 4 years down the line and Remainers are still openly lecturing us on what we should or should not have read before voting. It was a free democratic vote and we were permitted to read as much or as little as we wished.

But for the record, since the government were campaigning for Remain why would anyone believe anything they said about the Leave option? After all we have established governments always lie. And for the record I would have been open to being persuaded to vote Remain had the government not so appallingly mishandled the Remain campaign.

Sorry Modplods. You can move me now.

[Kendhni]

I am dumbfounded .... 4 years down the line and brexiteers are now openly admitting that they didn't bother reading what they were actually voting for - they just made something up in their own mind ... and totally ignored what the government told them they were actually voting for. Shows the true state and how disengaged the British electorate is.

I am dumfounded .... 4 years down the line and Remainers are still openly lecturing us on what we should or should not have read before voting. It was a free democratic vote and we were permitted to read as much or as little as we wished.

But for the record, since the government were campaigning for Remain why would anyone believe anything they said about the Leave option? After all we have established governments always lie. And for the record I would have been open to being persuaded to vote Remain had the government not so appallingly mishandled the Remain campaign.

Sorry Modplods. You can move me now.

Still dumbfounded ... but in this case I would suggest you try reading something and understanding it within the context I have clearly laid out, before commenting on something you obviously are taking out of context and obviously know nothing about. To be fair though you are not the first on this thread, that has responded to my posts, to rely on what they think they know rather than informing themselves.

[Kendhni]

BTW Merv, you are actually one of only 2 brexiteers, that I have come across (the other being on Quora), that at least tried to answer the questions and tried to justify brexit through genuine personal opinion (rather than simply regurgitate what the media told them to think). Maybe that is the 'Remain' element in you that allowed you to do so.

Sorry Modplods. You can move me now.

My promise to the forumites on this board ... this is my last word on this, it is hard to discuss things when it is obvious others are so invested in what they have been programmed to think that they are unwilling to have that view questioned. This promise is as genuine as the governments brexit promises to the people of the United Kingdom.

[towny44]

BTW Merv, you are actually one of only 2 brexiteers, that I have come across (the other being on Quora), that at least tried to answer the questions and tried to justify brexit through genuine personal opinion (rather than simply regurgitate what the media told them to think). Maybe that is the 'Remain' element in you that allowed you to do so.

Sorry Modplods. You can move me now.

My promise to the forumites on this board ... this is my last word on this, it is hard to discuss things when it is obvious others are so invested in what they have been programmed to think that they are unwilling to have that view questioned. This promise is as genuine as the governments brexit promises to the people of the United Kingdom.

Thank goodness for that, after losing Jack and then Gill I was beginning to fret that I would no longer be harangued by any Remainer who still believes someone stole his toys from the pram, rather than foolishly throwing them out himself in a paddy.