Life After Brexit

[barney]

The bad news for those citizens among us who wish ill on their country to prove a point is that nearly all EU deals with third countries are in the process of being rolled over.
Canada has been holding back in fear of upsetting the Eu because their ‘deal’ is still not ratified, but they won’t want to lose access to the very lucrative U.K. market, so will also sign up.

A simple trading agreement with no political strings attached is the way of doing things, which is what we thought we were signing up to with the Eu in the first place. Remember the Common Market?

[Kendhni]

Dunning-Kruger is strong in some

[barney]

Dunning-Kruger is strong in some

I’m assuming that you are talking about the EU negotiating team once again signing a fudge of an agreement that leaves enough ambiguity to exploit.

[Manoverboard]

Dunning-Kruger is strong in some

" The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people wrongly overestimate their knowledge or ability in a specific area. This tends to occur because a lack of self-awareness prevents them from accurately assessing their own skills."

[oldbluefox]

Dunning-Kruger is strong in some

" The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people wrongly overestimate their knowledge or ability in a specific area. This tends to occur because a lack of self-awareness prevents them from accurately assessing their own skills."

Are we talking here about those who drew up the Project Fear scenario?

[Manoverboard]

From the deadly silence on here regarding the trashing of our international reputation, I have a suspicion it’s not ‘Remoaners’ feeling stupid.

Or perhaps Gill there busy completing their applications for Covid Marshall

Should that be ' they're ' oh sarcastic one

[Manoverboard]

Dunning-Kruger is strong in some

" The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people wrongly overestimate their knowledge or ability in a specific area. This tends to occur because a lack of self-awareness prevents them from accurately assessing their own skills."

Are we talking here about those who drew up the Project Fear scenario?

Perhaps Ken is feeling superior again and is aiming his vitriol at all of us

[barney]

Sabre rattling.
Smoke and Mirrors.
False horror.

Then agree to meet again next week.
Just another day in Eu/U.K. negotiations.

What’s clear is that it’s not going the way that Brussels assumed it would and we now have the world turned upside down with the Eu wanting a deal and the U.K. not capitulating to demands.

Out of interest, would you agree to the status quo on fishing rights and EU interference in internal U.K. matters to get a trade agreement?
I wouldn’t.
I expect most remainers would sell granny to stay close to the Eu.

[towny44]

Dunning-Kruger is strong in some

" The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people wrongly overestimate their knowledge or ability in a specific area. This tends to occur because a lack of self-awareness prevents them from accurately assessing their own skills."

I have never been too concerned about whether I know enough about anything, in fact in many people information overload only seems to lead to a smug assumption that they must, as a result, be far more knowledgeable, and only end up being insufferably smug.

[Kendhni]

Nothing left but desperate clutching at straws as our incompetent bumbling government tries to back pedal its way out of an agreement they signed, while denying the HoP the ability to carry out due diligence, openly mocking and sneering those that wanted more time to scrutinise it, while the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

I am absolutely positively ecstatic about the wonderful job they have done with the Japanese agreement - it might even lead to a 0.07% boost to GDP which will add to the estimated boost of 0.17% to GDP an American trade deal may offer, and the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

And we have our trained gibbon at the helm, Johnson, who is acting tough and telling the EU that a deal must be had by mid October, only 7 days after the EU told him exactly the same thing (because they have more important things to do), and the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

[towny44]

Nothing left but desperate clutching at straws as our incompetent bumbling government tries to back pedal its way out of an agreement they signed, while denying the HoP the ability to carry out due diligence, openly mocking and sneering those that wanted more time to scrutinise it, while the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

I am absolutely positively ecstatic about the wonderful job they have done with the Japanese agreement - it might even lead to a 0.07% boost to GDP which will add to the estimated boost of 0.17% to GDP an American trade deal may offer, and the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

And we have our trained gibbon at the helm, Johnson, who is acting tough and telling the EU that a deal must be had by mid October, only 7 days after the EU told him exactly the same thing (because they have more important things to do), and the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

I think you just proved my point Ken.

[barney]

Nothing left but desperate clutching at straws as our incompetent bumbling government tries to back pedal its way out of an agreement they signed, while denying the HoP the ability to carry out due diligence, openly mocking and sneering those that wanted more time to scrutinise it, while the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

I am absolutely positively ecstatic about the wonderful job they have done with the Japanese agreement - it might even lead to a 0.07% boost to GDP which will add to the estimated boost of 0.17% to GDP an American trade deal may offer, and the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

And we have our trained gibbon at the helm, Johnson, who is acting tough and telling the EU that a deal must be had by mid October, only 7 days after the EU told him exactly the same thing (because they have more important things to do), and the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

NURSE !
He's out of bed again .

Just out of interest Ken, would you be happy for the UK to concede fishing rights and EU influence in internal UK matters in order to secure a trade agreement ?
A simple yes or no will suffice.

No need for Do-Do -Do -Do - Do etc.

[Kendhni]

Nothing left but desperate clutching at straws as our incompetent bumbling government tries to back pedal its way out of an agreement they signed, while denying the HoP the ability to carry out due diligence, openly mocking and sneering those that wanted more time to scrutinise it, while the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

I am absolutely positively ecstatic about the wonderful job they have done with the Japanese agreement - it might even lead to a 0.07% boost to GDP which will add to the estimated boost of 0.17% to GDP an American trade deal may offer, and the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

And we have our trained gibbon at the helm, Johnson, who is acting tough and telling the EU that a deal must be had by mid October, only 7 days after the EU told him exactly the same thing (because they have more important things to do), and the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

I think you just proved my point Ken.

Indeed, and you made it so easy

[Kendhni]

Nothing left but desperate clutching at straws as our incompetent bumbling government tries to back pedal its way out of an agreement they signed, while denying the HoP the ability to carry out due diligence, openly mocking and sneering those that wanted more time to scrutinise it, while the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

I am absolutely positively ecstatic about the wonderful job they have done with the Japanese agreement - it might even lead to a 0.07% boost to GDP which will add to the estimated boost of 0.17% to GDP an American trade deal may offer, and the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

And we have our trained gibbon at the helm, Johnson, who is acting tough and telling the EU that a deal must be had by mid October, only 7 days after the EU told him exactly the same thing (because they have more important things to do), and the fanbois go Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do, Do-do-do, do-do, do-do-do.

NURSE !
He's out of bed again .

Yes I am trying to escape all the brexiteers in the ward ... the incessant chanting of garbage like 'taking back sovereignty', 'making our own laws', '£350million per week for the NHS' etc. means they need to be kept in straight jackets, I on the other hand am allowed out because I do not show the same deranged delusions.

[barney]

Well, so far, after December 20

we will have taken back sovereignty (not shared sovereignty as is required under the EU)

we will be able to make our own laws (more importantly, not have laws imposed upon us by the EU)

we will have increased NHS spending - The £20.5 billion NHS England spending increase is the largest five year increase since the mid-2000s

would you like to add any other remainer myths ?

What about a federal EU ? - not true says the ardent remainer
What about https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-need ... und-chief/
Oh !
Forgot about the Hamilton moment already ?
Common debt is the first step to federalism.

[towny44]

Just out of interest Ken, can your superior intellect explain to us ignorant brexiteers, just why the very successful EEC Common market had to make the change into the presumptive federal organisation called the EU.
Please try to keep it simple, remember you think we are idiots after all.

[barney]

Just out of interest Ken, can your superior intellect explain to us ignorant brexiteers, just why the very successful EEC Common market had to make the change into the presumptive federal organisation called the EU.
Please try to keep it simple, remember you think we are idiots after all.

I can have a go at answering that one.
It transpired that political union was always the aim as well as a trade bloc.
That’s why DeGaulle wouldn’t approve our joining initially.
He suspected that the U.K. would be disruptive.

When we were taken in to the Common Market, the truth was kept hidden because Heath knew it would be unpalatable to the general public.
He admitted as much in his memoirs.
So, it was sold as a trade agreement but the politicians knew the truth and hid it.
When there was actually a vote on the issue, once again the future of the Eu was kept firmly under wraps.
Different political leaders of different parties continued to sign up to treaties without consulting the electorate.
It became more and more entwined.

Cameron came up with the referendum as a stunt to steal the floor from UKIP, safe in the knowledge that there would be little chance of defeat once the political machine kicked in.
The mistake was underestimating the available information due to the internet.
Back in the 70’s the average joe had little access to information outside of the newspapers.

So, to conclude, a federal Europe was always on the cards, it’s just that the voter wasn’t told.

Part of the Remain argument in the referendum was vote for the status quo but anybody with sense could see that the status quo was never on the table.
It was either leave or more EU.
The recent projects have absolutely proven this to be true.

There is still a hardcore minority who honestly believe that they are better served being governed by a foreign entity.
The Commission ( unelected) run the EU.
The Parliament rubber stamp the decision already made.

Anyone who still thinks that we are better served as members of the Eu have a few years to get their ducks in a row for the next U.K. election.
Let’s see who does.

[towny44]

I guess that most of us already knew that Barney, but it fails to answer the simple question, WHY?
Why having created a hugely successful trading block, without the need for any centralised govt input, the members of that organisation still continued with the stupid dream that they could achieve World domination, or at least free themselves of US domination by federalising it, at the same time as inviting all the newly freed up eastern bloc counties to join, thereby weakening the entire fabric. Ending up with a conglomerate that now desperately needs a white knight to take it over and break it up and sell off the only truly successful economy Germany, resulting in it becoming all powerful, which was what the initial reason for the EEC was in the first place.

[Manoverboard]

Barney could have added that Churchill knew the long term objective but felt that peace in Europe was all important.

The EU, by the way, cannot achieve European let alone World domination simply because they do not have sufficient oil deposits, the two World Wars taught us that did they not.

[towny44]

Barney could have added that Churchill knew the long term objective but felt that peace in Europe was all important.

The EU, by the way, cannot achieve European let alone World domination simply because they do not have sufficient oil deposits, the two World Wars taught us that did they not.

But what about Germany's wind turbines?

[barney]

I guess that most of us already knew that Barney, but it fails to answer the simple question, WHY?
Why having created a hugely successful trading block, without the need for any centralised govt input, the members of that organisation still continued with the stupid dream that they could achieve World domination, or at least free themselves of US domination by federalising it, at the same time as inviting all the newly freed up eastern bloc counties to join, thereby weakening the entire fabric. Ending up with a conglomerate that now desperately needs a white knight to take it over and break it up and sell off the only truly successful economy Germany, resulting in it becoming all powerful, which was what the initial reason for the EEC was in the first place.

I think that every accepts that without Germany, the Eu is a dead duck.
They may well survive the second biggest economy departing but if say Germany, France or Italy were to go, then the whole circus is over.
Germany is really the only contributing country that has done very well out of the euro because the Mark was so strong.

I read a lot of international news and euro scepticism is rife all across the old original countries.
Small, relatively insignificant countries seem to love it most.
Imagine that you are an unknown politician in a minnow country like say, Luxembourg and you end up President of the Commission
Imagine being a politician from say, Lithuania and are given a major portfolio on the european stage.
Kerching. Two things politicians crave is power and money.

What I really dislike about the Eu is the equal ness of it , if that’s actually a word.
How on earth is Latvia or Malta equal to France or Germany?
Joe Muscat, the now disgraced ex PM of Malta loved bigging it up at every opportunity, rubbing shoulders with the heavyweights.
He would often take to the press to chastise the U.K. while lording it over a country the size of a large town.
We were subsidising half of the continent while being openly criticised by many of them.

Had the U.K. changed it’s law to incorporate our Eu annual contribution as part of the foreign aid budget
it would have made more sense.

[Kendhni]

Just out of interest Ken, can your superior intellect explain to us ignorant brexiteers, just why the very successful EEC Common market had to make the change into the presumptive federal organisation called the EU.
Please try to keep it simple, remember you think we are idiots after all.

I am not sure I can make it that simple - after all you didn't even know about the governments contract with the people. Barneys isn't too bad but it suffers from the usual "Barney-ism" i.e. something that borders very loosely on fact ignoring anything that goes beyond the desired narrative.

Rather than me trying to explain it to you, how about I simply use some quotes from the time when it was decided that a referendum was required (we can call that the first referendum) after joining the EEC because of the very fact of the political aspirations, so was on the same issues as the 2016 referendum (we can call that the second referendum). The political aspirations were well known about at the time of the first referendum, every household in the UK was informed about them - I am guessing you have just forgotten.

Prior to joining the EU we were already in a Free Trade Area, cunningly called the European Free Trade Area (EFTA). We left that because free trade was no longer enough (and as a country we were on our knees).

Churchill
If Europe united is to be a living force, Britain will have to pay her full part as a member of the European family'

Harold Wilson (1967)
Whatever the economic arguments, the House will realise that, as I have repeatedly made clear, the Government’s purpose derives above all from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can — and indeed must — play our full part in it.

The leaflet to every household in the UK
“if the political implications of joining Europe are at present clearest in the economic field, it is because the Community is primarily concerned with economic policy. But it is inevitable that the scope should broaden as member countries’ interests become harmonised […]

What is proposed is a sharing and an enlargement of individual national sovereignties in the general interest”.

Enoch Powell (1971)
“I do not think the fact that this involves a cession — and a growing cession — of Parliament's sovereignty can be disputed. Indeed, I notice that those who are the keenest proposers of British entry are the most ready to confess — not to confess, but to assert — that of course this involves by its very nature a reduction of the sovereignty of the House.”

David Owen
“Of course that means that one gives up sovereignty, and a lot of the debate in this House has been focused upon sovereignty, and rightly so, because this is a central matter to many of the people who fundamentally do not wish us to go into Europe. They do not wish to give up any measure of sovereignty..."

"They do not wish to give up any power that we exercise as a nation and put ourselves into the decision structure of other nations because it involves compromise. It involves not always getting one's own way. It is, however, foolish to try to sell the concept of the E.E.C., and not admit that this means giving up some sovereignty. Of course it does, and I believe it rightly does. I believe this is one of the central appeals of it.”

Daily Telegraph
"defence, foreign affairs and economics must all be harnessed to the task of strengthening Europe”.
While it said that a referendum “was wrong”, it did say that it enabled “the British people to consciously re-dedicate to European integration […] to add their impetus and inspiration to the great work”.

“Continuing a trend, MPs turned more and more to talking about the issue of sovereignty and tended to be rather brief on economic topics. It has now got through to a lot more MPs that sovereignty is a vital issue.”

Daily Mail
"The anti marketeers have a glum lack of faith in Britains abality to hold her own inside the Market -- coupled with unremitting suspicion of foreigners" (how little things have changed).

"They speak as if the EECs eventual goal of poltical union was a dark secret to be sprung on us when our back was turned"

"Political union will not come until ... we are ready for it. And we're nowhere near ready for it now, and a lot of us probably won;t live to see it. That is the political reality, and everyone knows it. That is why political union is not much of a live issue now. But, if and when our children or our children's children want to join Europe into one integrated nation we shall have left them something more practical than a dream. We shall have left them the joiner's tools and a political roof over their heads.

"That is the legacy we shall not be ashamed to leave. What have the no voters to offer instead?" (again, how little things have changed).


Also, if you actually have any genuine interest, https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk ... ments.html

[barney]

Wow
All that and yet the very first opportunity that the public got to have a say on the way successive governments had taken us, they voted by majority to leave.
Go figure !

[towny44]

Wow
All that and yet the very first opportunity that the public got to have a say on the way successive governments had taken us, they voted by majority to leave.
Go figure !

He also failed to answer why, after making such a success of the common market, they still decided to pursue closer political union and create the Euro and allow entry to every other TD&H in Europe.

[Kendhni]

Fact check alert

Well, so far, after December 20

we will have taken back sovereignty (not shared sovereignty as is required under the EU)

I am finally glad to see that at least one brexiteer has not been totally brain washed about this 'taking back sovereignty'. As with any treaty, including the EU and ALL the trade agreements that the UK will need in the future, there will be a need for the sharing of sovereignty. The question people should be asking, is how much sovereignty will Johnson be willing to surrender to get a trade agreement with the US.

If we were not sovereign we would not have been able to leave the EU. Compare this with Scotland, who has to ask parliament if it can hold a referendum, because the UK parliament is sovereign over the union.

we will be able to make our own laws (more importantly, not have laws imposed upon us by the EU)

Is this myth still being pedalled? I refer you to an exchange between David Davies and Ken Clarke (I am guessing both know a lot more than either of us)
DD: [usual rant about taking back sovereignty and having laws forced upon us]
KC: Can you name me one of these laws forced upon this house?
DD: [various sounds and grunts]
KC: Just one
DD: There isn't one, but it is the principle

This is the same David Davies who was described by his peers as lazy, arrogant and incompetent (3 virtues he continually exhibited during his time as negotiator). He cowered behind the words project fear for much of his brexit campaigning and then realised on day 1, when he was sent home with his tail between his legs, that when the EU said out-means-out they actually meant that the UK had to leave and was not going to be allowed 'have its cake and eat it' in 'the easiest of negotiations'

we will have increased NHS spending - The £20.5 billion NHS England spending increase is the largest five year increase since the mid-2000s

A very misleading and mis-representation of the truth. In recognition of 70 years of the NHS, Teresa May said she would give an additional £20.5bn to the NHS for the period up to 2023 (?) - i.e. about £4bn per year. This was an increase in spending but at the same time the NHS had been tasked to make savings of £20bn prior to 2020 ... so arguably it was just getting back the money it had saved. Also £8bn of this money had already been promised.

However I have still not seen any attempt at Johnson giving the NHS the £350million per week he promised he would (increased spending due to COVID does not count - not the tens of millions that Johnson and his government gave to friends, family and party faithful to manufacture PPE and other equipment that ultimately was not required - cronyism at its worst.

would you like to add any other remainer myths ?

I can't add to something that has not yet been started - please provide one honest myth.

What about a federal EU ? - not true says the ardent remainer
What about https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-need ... und-chief/
Oh !
Forgot about the Hamilton moment already ?
Common debt is the first step to federalism.

Wow shocker ... countries borrowed to get through coronavirus and it will have to be paid back ... I am glad the UK did not have to do that .... oh .... wait a minute ... it did. It can't even remember how many hundreds of billions it has borrowed and now has to pay back. Maybe if you keep repeating your made up 'fact' about 'federalism' you will reprogram enough brexiteers to believe it.