Current Affairs

[Gill W]

The figures are unreliable.
U.K. under 400k infections - over 40k deaths
Russia over 1.1 million infections - under 20k deaths

Gill, do you believe those figures?

If you are talking about Russia, I can’t comment as I haven’t done any independent research. I don’t just believe what a person says on the internet!

[Gill W]

Why does everybody want to deny or play down the death toll from COVID?

For some it suits an agenda, for others it is simple denial, for others it is a fact. The way COVID deaths have been counted has not been particularly reliable or consistent. My understanding was that COVID had to play a role in the death ... but others seem to have a different understanding (so I guess it really isn't clear).

Personally I think the main thing that should be considered is the excess deaths beyond what one would normally expect - it is not ideal but is probably the best comparitive that we have. I posted a link a couple of days ago that has a video attached which shows a lot of stats and analysis of those stats.

I think you are right - some want to play it down because of a personal agenda and others do it to protect themselves from acknowledging just how bad it was in April and May.

I am like you, I look at the deaths from causes and the excess over the 5 year average.

It’s difficult to deny the graph which illustrates what has happened.

[Gill W]

Why does everybody want to deny or play down the death toll from COVID?

The figures speak for themselves Gill, and the fact that we have one of the highest death rates in the world gives a fair indication that we have more deaths than what there should have been …unless the government comes up with something pretty substantial re: the new measures, then I think they are playing god with peoples lives. anything short of closing places where people socialise will be another government fudge imo.

We've been there, lets not go there again!

It looks like it’ll be tomorrow when we’ll know our fates,
It’s still the same virus and will behave in exactly the same way as it did earlier this year, if allowed. Hopefully, lessons have been learnt....... I have no idea what they’ll announce tomorrow, but my gut feeling is that it won’t go far enough.

I suspect we are at level 4 on the government’s Covid alert chart. If so we should be back in full lockdown. I can’t see that happening

[Gill W]

Why does everybody want to deny or play down the death toll from COVID?

Gill, I hope I am not included in that claim, I accept that our figures are bad , but what I do object to is that a lot of anti govt rhetoric blames it on our lockdown being too late.

It wasn’t directed at any individual, just a general response to comments that have been made on here.

However, since you mentioned it, I do think that, for some, the figures are played down to protect the government from criticism regarding their Covid response.

[oldbluefox]

I have no idea what they’ll announce tomorrow, but my gut feeling is that it won’t go far enough.

I suspect we are at level 4 on the government’s Covid alert chart. If so we should be back in full lockdown. I can’t see that happening

I'm not overly concerned what they announce tomorrow since we will continue to take the same strict precautions we have ebb taking all along. Maybe those who have been so cavalier have more to worry about plus the poor businesses who will be made to suffer for the stupidity of the few.

[barney]

I’m a huge critic of this government and it’s handling of pretty much everything including covid but except Brexit.
My point is that either the U.K. is overestimating genuine covid fatalities or most of the rest are underestimating and therefore international comparisons are illogical.
According to verifiable worldwide stats the U.K. has a death rate of about 1% of those confirmed cases.
Other countries have a minuscule death rate.
Why?
Is the Russian health service superior to the U.K.?
Are Peruvian people less susceptible to die from covid?
It doesn’t make sense.

Regional lockdown yes.
National lockdown no.

[Manoverboard]

If the death certificate says covid was the cause of death then whatever other underling conditions they may have had become irrelevant to the actual 'recorded' cause of death.

Not necessarily. I seem to recall at one point in the early days that doctors were told to record the cause of death as Covid if the patient showed signs of Covid even if they had not had a positive test.

I posted right at the start of all this about the brother of a chum who deffo died of cancer but caught covid in the hospital and his Death Certificate states covid which is utter rubbish ... how many more could there be.

[Kendhni]

Why does everybody want to deny or play down the death toll from COVID?

The figures speak for themselves Gill, and the fact that we have one of the highest death rates in the world gives a fair indication that we have more deaths than what there should have been …unless the government comes up with something pretty substantial re: the new measures, then I think they are playing god with peoples lives. anything short of closing places where people socialise will be another government fudge imo.

We've been there, lets not go there again!

My next door neighbour has it on very good authority that they intend to shut down all pubs, as the main measure to reduce the infection rate. The pubs seem to be the main area where infection is being spread, so maybe all you boozers need to pop out tonight while you can.

That is quite interesting because I remember, not that long ago, someone (not sure who) at the one of the briefings made the point that, come September, we could have the schools open or we could have the pubs open but not both ... and they had no intention of closing the schools.

[oldbluefox]

Why does everybody want to deny or play down the death toll from COVID?

For some it suits an agenda, for others it is simple denial, for others it is a fact.

- some want to play it down because of a personal agenda and others do it to protect themselves from acknowledging just how bad it was in April and May.

It’s difficult to deny the graph which illustrates what has happened.

Please don't confuse cynicism for the accuracy of those figures with any of the simplified reasons you have given. If the collection of data is wrong, confused or irrelevant the graphs will also be wrong. That is not to deny the severity of the pandemic but for reasons already stated they should not be taken as gospel.
FYI I fall into none of the categories you have given but I am cynical when there are so many variables.

[oldbluefox]

My neighbour's cousin died of cancer but because there was Covid in ther car home it was included on his death certificate and therefore added to the figures. He himself never had Covid.
I wonder how many more were recorded like this?

[Gill W]

Why does everybody want to deny or play down the death toll from COVID?

For some it suits an agenda, for others it is simple denial, for others it is a fact.

- some want to play it down because of a personal agenda and others do it to protect themselves from acknowledging just how bad it was in April and May.

It’s difficult to deny the graph which illustrates what has happened.

Please don't confuse cynicism for the accuracy of those figures with any of the simplified reasons you have given. If the collection of data is wrong, confused or irrelevant the graphs will also be wrong. That is not to deny the severity of the pandemic but for reasons already stated they should not be taken as gospel.
FYI I fall into none of the categories you have given but I am cynical when there are so many variables.

The figure I take notice of is the Office of National Statistics figure for deaths for all reasons ( not just deaths with Covid on the death certificate).

I know it’s not fashionable to trust experts, but I trust the ONS to gather statistical information and record it correctly.

What reason do you have to be cynical about the figure the ONS have recorded for all deaths for any reason (not just ones with Covid on the death certificate)?

[Gill W]

The figures speak for themselves Gill, and the fact that we have one of the highest death rates in the world gives a fair indication that we have more deaths than what there should have been …unless the government comes up with something pretty substantial re: the new measures, then I think they are playing god with peoples lives. anything short of closing places where people socialise will be another government fudge imo.

We've been there, lets not go there again!

My next door neighbour has it on very good authority that they intend to shut down all pubs, as the main measure to reduce the infection rate. The pubs seem to be the main area where infection is being spread, so maybe all you boozers need to pop out tonight while you can.

That is quite interesting because I remember, not that long ago, someone (not sure who) at the one of the briefings made the point that, come September, we could have the schools open or we could have the pubs open but not both ... and they had no intention of closing the schools.

I remember that comment, and thought there’d be quite a few people who’d rather keep the pubs open!

It might have been Whitty who orignally said this.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Two things are clear. Whatever the precise reason many thousands of people died compared to the five year average. What isn't clear is how many died of Covid, how many died with Covid and how many died as the result of the lockdown. For example there were more suicides. More domestic violence. Many people who were scared or unable to seek help for other conditions. Cancer for example.

The second thing is there isn't even a consistent way of counting the stats even across the nations of the UK, let alone across Europe or the World.

That's even before people start twisting the numbers because they either love or hate Boris.

[Mervyn and Trish]

As an aside did anyone else see the ironic story of the woman from Cheshire who'd travelled to Blackpool only to complain about all the people who were travelling to Blackpool?

[Kendhni]

As an aside did anyone else see the ironic story of the woman from Cheshire who'd travelled to Blackpool only to complain about all the people who were travelling to Blackpool?

Another one??? I am still laughing at Jane Peacock

[Gill W]

Two things are clear. Whatever the precise reason many thousands of people died compared to the five year average. What isn't clear is how many died of Covid, how many died with Covid and how many died as the result of the lockdown. For example there were more suicides. More domestic violence. Many people who were scared or unable to seek help for other conditions. Cancer for example.

The second thing is there isn't even a consistent way of counting the stats even across the nations of the UK, let alone across Europe or the World.

That's even before people start twisting the numbers because they either love or hate Boris.

I certainly think there’s an element of people dying due to lockdown related reasons, but don’t believe it’s as high as approx 24000 deaths in excess of the 5 year average (based on c 65000 deaths for all reasons in excess of 5 year average and c 41000 ‘official’ Covid deaths)

[Onelife]

Clubs, restaurants and bars to close at 10 pm....Welcome to the happy hour of dithering incompetence. .....Boris must go alone with half of his cabinet.....total shambles!!!

I don't know where Starmers bottom line will be but the more I listen to him the more genuine I think he is ......if he gets rid of half his dead wood then there is hope for the Labour party. Under his leadership.

Bring back Theresa.

[Kendhni]

Clubs, restaurants and bars to close at 10 pm....Welcome to the happy hour of dithering incompetence. .....Boris must go alone with half of his cabinet.....total shambles!!!

I don't know where Starmers bottom line will be but the more I listen to him the more genuine I think he is ......if he gets rid of half his dead wood then there is hope for the Labour party. Under his leadership.

Bring back Theresa.

At the minute I think the saving grace is that in bars and restaurants it will be table service only ... sadly when people get alcohol in them, any semblance of intelligence goes out the window. I await Johnson's speech, but at least he seems to have learned from the February screw up. I still think the best message is for all those that can work from home to stay working from home. I also think that he needs to provide a realistic plan/vision/expectation for the next 6 months so that people can prepare properly.

On the downside, I have just read a very downbeat assessment for this winter period. I won't repeat any of it at the minute because I am not sure how accurate it is - hopefully it is a worst case scenario. I think Johnson needs to provide a realistic plan/vision/expectation/projection for the next 6 months so that people can prepare properly.

[Onelife]

Clubs, restaurants and bars to close at 10 pm....Welcome to the happy hour of dithering incompetence. .....Boris must go alone with half of his cabinet.....total shambles!!!

I don't know where Starmers bottom line will be but the more I listen to him the more genuine I think he is ......if he gets rid of half his dead wood then there is hope for the Labour party. Under his leadership.

Bring back Theresa.

At the minute I think the saving grace is that in bars and restaurants it will be table service only ... sadly when people get alcohol in them, any semblance of intelligence goes out the window. I await Johnson's speech, but at least he seems to have learned from the February screw up. I still think the best message is for all those that can work from home to stay working from home. I also think that he needs to provide a realistic plan/vision/expectation for the next 6 months so that people can prepare properly.

On the downside, I have just read a very downbeat assessment for this winter period. I won't repeat any of it at the minute because I am not sure how accurate it is - hopefully it is a worst case scenario. I think Johnson needs to provide a realistic plan/vision/expectation/projection for the next 6 months so that people can prepare properly.

Yeap! Ken,

Indecisiveness = confusion = none compliance= more infections = more deaths.

[david63]

... table service only

The bit that is confusing me is that I thought that was already the case!

[Stephen]

Perhaps they do know something we don't!

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[barney]

... table service only

The bit that is confusing me is that I thought that was already the case!

We live in a tourist area and can confirm that it’s quite usual for people to go in and buy drinks then bring them outside to drink them.
Two of the pubs in Instow are literally across the road from the beautiful beach so people walk across.
I think that most are trying to socially distance.
Closing at ten this time of year will make little difference.
Their busy time is about five until nine.

[Ray Scully]

Clubs, restaurants and bars to close at 10 pm....Welcome to the happy hour of dithering incompetence. .....Boris must go alone with half of his cabinet.....total shambles!!!

I don't know where Starmers bottom line will be but the more I listen to him the more genuine I think he is ......if he gets rid of half his dead wood then there is hope for the Labour party. Under his leadership.

Bring back Theresa.

At the minute I think the saving grace is that in bars and restaurants it will be table service only ... sadly when people get alcohol in them, any semblance of intelligence goes out the window. I await Johnson's speech, but at least he seems to have learned from the February screw up. I still think the best message is for all those that can work from home to stay working from home. I also think that he needs to provide a realistic plan/vision/expectation for the next 6 months so that people can prepare properly.

On the downside, I have just read a very downbeat assessment for this winter period. I won't repeat any of it at the minute because I am not sure how accurate it is - hopefully it is a worst case scenario. I think Johnson needs to provide a realistic plan/vision/expectation/projection for the next 6 months so that people can prepare properly.

But in football parlance Ken, "has the manager lost the team" is he now able to carry forward a realistic plan?

[Kendhni]

... table service only

The bit that is confusing me is that I thought that was already the case!

To be honest, I thought so too, but yet have seen more than one bar with people standing at it ordering drinks .. maybe it is now a case of enforcement.

[Kendhni]

Clubs, restaurants and bars to close at 10 pm....Welcome to the happy hour of dithering incompetence. .....Boris must go alone with half of his cabinet.....total shambles!!!

I don't know where Starmers bottom line will be but the more I listen to him the more genuine I think he is ......if he gets rid of half his dead wood then there is hope for the Labour party. Under his leadership.

Bring back Theresa.

At the minute I think the saving grace is that in bars and restaurants it will be table service only ... sadly when people get alcohol in them, any semblance of intelligence goes out the window. I await Johnson's speech, but at least he seems to have learned from the February screw up. I still think the best message is for all those that can work from home to stay working from home. I also think that he needs to provide a realistic plan/vision/expectation for the next 6 months so that people can prepare properly.

On the downside, I have just read a very downbeat assessment for this winter period. I won't repeat any of it at the minute because I am not sure how accurate it is - hopefully it is a worst case scenario. I think Johnson needs to provide a realistic plan/vision/expectation/projection for the next 6 months so that people can prepare properly.

But in football parlance Ken, "has the manager lost the team" is he now able to carry forward a realistic plan?

Johnson needs a couple disrupters in there instead of his network of 'yes; men
Maybe in football parlance, 6 months ago 'What a howler', with today opportunity being 'he should bury that'

PS: I am useless at football lingo