Life After Brexit

[barney]

I’ve never heard a single person say that we are being bullied by France and Germany.
I have heard people say that they think they are being obstructive but I understand that they have their audience to play to, as do our government.
Macron plays hardball on fishing because he needs to appease his northern voters.
They have been given the choice of a negotiated change of access or no access.
They will settle for the negotiation if they are wise.

Would you prefer the status quo Gill with the CFP continuing governance ?

[Onelife]

A question for our posters on this forum.

Do you think that the U.K. should accept the terms of the EU regarding fishing, that is, the status quo ?

Do you think that the U.K. should accept the ECJ as the superior court with regards to disputes?

Do you think that the U.K. should accept all future Eu laws with regards to state aid of industry?

Those are the sticking points.

(1) If you had asked me three weeks ago l would have said no, however, if there is to be a compromise l can see that a 'fair' ( UK administered ) quota system could be a way forward.....at the end of the day there is no advantage in keeping the bigger proportion of fish if the EU make it difficult for us to sell them....and they will.

(2) Absolutely not!!!

(3) Ah! That level playing field ....what a load of boll**ks that is....l was reading something the other day whereby banks were moving some of their oporation to the EU.....apparently the EU have indicated that they are prepared to fast track financial passports ( if that's the right term) in order to make it easier for them to trade. I actually can't see anything wrong with the concept of doing this as it just amounts to getting a competitive edge in what is a global market place.....so as an independent nation we have every right to do the same....inducement create opportunity.

[barney]

A question for our posters on this forum.

Do you think that the U.K. should accept the terms of the EU regarding fishing, that is, the status quo ?

Do you think that the U.K. should accept the ECJ as the superior court with regards to disputes?

Do you think that the U.K. should accept all future Eu laws with regards to state aid of industry?

Those are the sticking points.

Why is fish so important when it’s a minuscule part of our economy

Are other courts available?

I think some agreement on state aid is important otherwise there will be nothing to stop this government bunging more money at its cronies

Ok , fishing is important because the U.K. becomes a sovereign territory and by international agreement, decides what access third parties get.
That’s the way it is in the world outside the Eu.
Although it is small fry financially, it’s important.
We have offered a chance to negotiate. The Eu has so far rejected that.

Ref the ECJ. We have proposed an independent arbitration service in case of future disputes.
The Eu have rejected that claiming ECJ dominance.

Ref potential state aid issues.
We cannot allow a foreign organisation to dictate internal laws. Ironically, the Tories have little intention of subsidising U.K. businesses but must retain the right if necessary as an independent nation. There is a higher probability under the next Labour government of this being used, so it’s important.

Of course, in the event of no deal, the U.K. will subsidise our car industry by reimbursement of Eu tariffs, paid for by German export tariffs.
The Eu don’t like that idea and will take it to the WTO.

[Gill W]

Would you prefer the status quo Gill with the CFP continuing governance ?

As fishing is such a tiny part of our economy, I’m not bothered one way or the other.

But I don’t have the Brexiter obsession with fish

[Gill W]

Ref the ECJ. We have proposed an independent arbitration service in case of future disputes.

A whole new can of worms.

Who sits on the arbitration panel,

How would it be governed.

What would be the appeal process

How much would it cost

Who pays for it

That’s just off the top of my head.

[barney]

A question for our posters on this forum.

Do you think that the U.K. should accept the terms of the EU regarding fishing, that is, the status quo ?

Do you think that the U.K. should accept the ECJ as the superior court with regards to disputes?

Do you think that the U.K. should accept all future Eu laws with regards to state aid of industry?

Those are the sticking points.

(1) If you had asked me three weeks ago l would have said no, however, if there is to be a compromise l can see that a 'fair' ( UK administered ) quota system could be a way forward.....at the end of the day there is no advantage in keeping the bigger proportion of fish if the EU make it difficult for us to sell them....and they will.

(2) Absolutely not!!!

(3) Ah! That level playing field ....what a load of boll**ks that is....l was reading something the other day whereby banks were moving some of their oporation to the EU.....apparently the EU have indicated that they are prepared to fast track financial passports ( if that's the right term) in order to make it easier for them to trade. I actually can't see anything wrong with the concept of doing this as it just amounts to getting a competitive edge in what is a global market place.....so as an independent nation we have every right to do the same....inducement create opportunity.

You’re right about inducement but it’s peanuts in real terms.
There are about half a million work in the City and it’s estimated that about 7.5 thousand people have relocated to Europe, most of those just going back to their home country but continuing to work for U.K. companies.
One of my best friends works for a big financial player in the City and they talked about opening a satellite office in Amsterdam a few years back.
There was literally zero uptake. Not a single applicant.
That’s not a story I read but an actual fact.

To be fair, the Eu countries have every right to offer inducements.
The reason most of the U.K. internet gambling industry relocated to Malta was because Malta offered tax breaks. They are now crapping themselves because the Eu wants to harmonise tax regimes and they will lose their advantage.
Up to now they have had a veto because unanimity was needed, but the Eu is moving towards majority voting on all issues. Just ask Mr. Verhofstadt. That’s his main cause.
I’d expect big players like Bet365 will just move on.

[screwy]

Would you prefer the status quo Gill with the CFP continuing governance ?

As fishing is such a tiny part of our economy, I’m not bothered one way or the other.

But I don’t have the Brexiter obsession with fish

So basically you don’t give a toss about UK Fishermen.? That’s nice.

[barney]

Ref the ECJ. We have proposed an independent arbitration service in case of future disputes.

A whole new can of worms.

Who sits on the arbitration panel,

How would it be governed.

What would be the appeal process

How much would it cost

Who pays for it

That’s just off the top of my head.

What we proposed was 2 ECJ judges, 2 Uk Supreme Court judges, 3 independent judges.
They rejected that.
Rather than looking for problems, we are looking for solutions.

[barney]

Would you prefer the status quo Gill with the CFP continuing governance ?

As fishing is such a tiny part of our economy, I’m not bothered one way or the other.

But I don’t have the Brexiter obsession with fish

So basically you don’t give a toss about UK Fishermen.? That’s nice.

Gill just doesn’t believe in the sovereignty of a nation.
All remainers are happy to hand over a high degree of sovereignty to Brussels.
That’s the entire basis of the EU.
So, there is no territorial British waters, it all belongs to the Eu and Brussels decides who fishes what and where.

So, to answer your question, basically, no.

[towny44]

Considering the argument put forward by our Remainer friends that we are such an insignificant little nation compared to the might of the EU I cannot understand why they should be so concerned about the insignificant amount of trade they do with us or quibbling over a few fish. Not worth arguing about.

That’s a constant source of confusion for me too Foxy.
One day we are a basket case economy on the periphery of the greatest bloc in history and the next we are a major economy and a threat?
Which one depends on how the wind blows.

It’s a constant source of of confusion for me as well.
One day our Leaver friends complain that we were bullied within the EU by France and Germany and the next day we hold all the cards in negotiations and our sheer British clout means we can trade successfully throughout the world with barely a trade deal to our name.
Which one depends on how the wind blows

Gill, if that is your understanding of the facts then you have not been listening to us. We were not P****d off because we were being bullied but because we were outvoted once the vetoes were gone, and having to contribute more and more to ever increasing numbers of new weak economy member states. And we don't think or want to hold all the cards in the negotiations, but it would be nice if we were allowed to have a fair share.

[towny44]

A question for our posters on this forum.

Do you think that the U.K. should accept the terms of the EU regarding fishing, that is, the status quo ?

Do you think that the U.K. should accept the ECJ as the superior court with regards to disputes?

Do you think that the U.K. should accept all future Eu laws with regards to state aid of industry?

Those are the sticking points.

Why is fish so important when it’s a minuscule part of our economy

Are other courts available?

I think some agreement on state aid is important otherwise there will be nothing to stop this government bunging more money at its cronies

3 totally irrelevant comments.

[Onelife]

That’s a constant source of confusion for me too Foxy.
One day we are a basket case economy on the periphery of the greatest bloc in history and the next we are a major economy and a threat?
Which one depends on how the wind blows.

It’s a constant source of of confusion for me as well.
One day our Leaver friends complain that we were bullied within the EU by France and Germany and the next day we hold all the cards in negotiations and our sheer British clout means we can trade successfully throughout the world with barely a trade deal to our name.
Which one depends on how the wind blows

Gill, if that is your understanding of the facts then you have not been listening to us. We were not P****d off because we were being bullied but because we were outvoted once the vetoes were gone, and having to contribute more and more to ever increasing numbers of new weak economy member states. And we don't think or want to hold all the cards in the negotiations, but it would be nice if we were allowed to have a fair share.

Some have short memories of how Greece spent, spent, spent, only then to be funded, funded, funded, by in part, us suckers!!

[barney]

Italy has had literally zero growth since the recession in 2008 but is now in line for billions in non repayable grants from the EU covid fund.
They have agreed 350 billion euros in non repayable grants to be mainly distributed in to Southern Europe plus another 400 billion in loans. This is on top of what each individual country has spent on their own provisions.
Would we have wanted our grandchildren to be picking up the tab for this on top of our own national debt.
I would have hoped that had we still have been a member, the U.K. would have vetoed this but doubt we would have. Politicians are always looking for the next cushy job.

[Gill W]

Would you prefer the status quo Gill with the CFP continuing governance ?

As fishing is such a tiny part of our economy, I’m not bothered one way or the other.

But I don’t have the Brexiter obsession with fish

So basically you don’t give a toss about UK Fishermen.? That’s nice.

Did I say that?

No I didn’t.

But don’t let it stop your erroneous assumptions

[Gill W]

As fishing is such a tiny part of our economy, I’m not bothered one way or the other.

But I don’t have the Brexiter obsession with fish

So basically you don’t give a toss about UK Fishermen.? That’s nice.

Gill just doesn’t believe in the sovereignty of a nation.
All remainers are happy to hand over a high degree of sovereignty to Brussels.
That’s the entire basis of the EU.
So, there is no territorial British waters, it all belongs to the Eu and Brussels decides who fishes what and where.

So, to answer your question, basically, no.

Oh God, you are on the ridiculous assumption bandwagon too

If you are going to start doing that, I really can’t be bothered

[Gill W]

A question for our posters on this forum.

Do you think that the U.K. should accept the terms of the EU regarding fishing, that is, the status quo ?

Do you think that the U.K. should accept the ECJ as the superior court with regards to disputes?

Do you think that the U.K. should accept all future Eu laws with regards to state aid of industry?

Those are the sticking points.

Why is fish so important when it’s a minuscule part of our economy

Are other courts available?

I think some agreement on state aid is important otherwise there will be nothing to stop this government bunging more money at its cronies

3 totally irrelevant comments.

*shrugs*

I think a lot of your comments are irrelevant, but hold my tongue to keep the peace.

[Gill W]

That’s a constant source of confusion for me too Foxy.
One day we are a basket case economy on the periphery of the greatest bloc in history and the next we are a major economy and a threat?
Which one depends on how the wind blows.

It’s a constant source of of confusion for me as well.
One day our Leaver friends complain that we were bullied within the EU by France and Germany and the next day we hold all the cards in negotiations and our sheer British clout means we can trade successfully throughout the world with barely a trade deal to our name.
Which one depends on how the wind blows

Gill, if that is your understanding of the facts then you have not been listening to us. We were not P****d off because we were being bullied but because we were outvoted once the vetoes were gone, and having to contribute more and more to ever increasing numbers of new weak economy member states. And we don't think or want to hold all the cards in the negotiations, but it would be nice if we were allowed to have a fair share.

Every Brexiter has their own version of the ‘facts’. It’s too noisy to hear anything

[barney]

So basically you don’t give a toss about UK Fishermen.? That’s nice.

Gill just doesn’t believe in the sovereignty of a nation.
All remainers are happy to hand over a high degree of sovereignty to Brussels.
That’s the entire basis of the EU.
So, there is no territorial British waters, it all belongs to the Eu and Brussels decides who fishes what and where.

So, to answer your question, basically, no.

Oh God, you are on the ridiculous assumption bandwagon too

If you are going to start doing that, I really can’t be bothered

It’s really quite simple isn’t it?
A condition of belonging to the European Union is that you hand over a degree of sovereignty and agree that you will abide by the decisions made in Brussels.
If you don’t want that, you leave the institution as we have done.
It’s not a ridiculous assumption bandwagon, it’s a fact of life.
The fact that you are a very vocal, self declared remainer means that you must be comfortable with handing over sovereignty to Brussels.
Even Clegg admitted to that during the debate.

[towny44]

It’s a constant source of of confusion for me as well.
One day our Leaver friends complain that we were bullied within the EU by France and Germany and the next day we hold all the cards in negotiations and our sheer British clout means we can trade successfully throughout the world with barely a trade deal to our name.
Which one depends on how the wind blows

Gill, if that is your understanding of the facts then you have not been listening to us. We were not P****d off because we were being bullied but because we were outvoted once the vetoes were gone, and having to contribute more and more to ever increasing numbers of new weak economy member states. And we don't think or want to hold all the cards in the negotiations, but it would be nice if we were allowed to have a fair share.

Every Brexiter has their own version of the ‘facts’. It’s too noisy to hear anything

Is it any different with remainers, you all have your own reasons for wanting to be in the EU, but we brexiteers show far more tolerance in accepting that you are entitled to hold those opinions, yet very few of you are prepared to accept our reasons for wanting to leave.
There have been a number of articles recently about why left wingers are far more strident in their opposition to right wing views, than vice versa. It would certainly appear to be true of remainers vs brexiteers as well.

[barney]

Gill, if that is your understanding of the facts then you have not been listening to us. We were not P****d off because we were being bullied but because we were outvoted once the vetoes were gone, and having to contribute more and more to ever increasing numbers of new weak economy member states. And we don't think or want to hold all the cards in the negotiations, but it would be nice if we were allowed to have a fair share.

Every Brexiter has their own version of the ‘facts’. It’s too noisy to hear anything

Is it any different with remainers, you all have your own reasons for wanting to be in the EU, but we brexiteers show far more tolerance in accepting that you are entitled to hold those opinions, yet very few of you are prepared to accept our reasons for wanting to leave.
There have been a number of articles recently about why left wingers are far more strident in their opposition to right wing views, than vice versa. It would certainly appear to be true of remainers vs brexiteers as well.

As a Lefty, I unfortunately have to agree with that John.
Is was disappointed to hear a prominent Labour member call another member Scum yesterday in the HoC. Disgusting in my opinion.

It does now appear that many who consider themselves liberal in thought turn out to be the most illiberal if you disagree with them.

I was having a discussion recently about Antifa and my friend just couldn’t get his head round the point that the far right and Antifa are just two sides of the same coin.
I’m against the far right but don’t think that violence is the answer to their violence.

Most of the name calling and vitriol in the Brexit issue has come from those on the remain side.
Remember that disgusting woman shouting Nazi in the face of the counter protester in Trafalgar Square?
Turned out she was unfortunately a Labour activist who contracted to the nhs.

[barney]

I read in the Guardian that the Eu are planning to not allow free flow access to British tourists after January saying that e passports will not get preference.
Given that covid has proven how important British tourists are to European economies, you think they would not want to go down that road of discouragement.

Shortly after the Brexit vote in 2016, we were on Azura in Amsterdam.
The Dutch immigration decided to check all passports before disembarkation.
Starting at the top and working down the decks.
They gave up at A deck because they had totally underestimated how long it would take.

Can you imagine checking passports at every port on Brittania or Iona ?
It would cost them billions in lost spending.

By the way, for balance, the U.K. is accepting Eu passports through e passports.
Good old British common sense.

[Gill W]

I read in the Guardian that the Eu are planning to not allow free flow access to British tourists after January saying that e passports will not get preference.
Given that covid has proven how important British tourists are to European economies, you think they would not want to go down that road of discouragement.

Shortly after the Brexit vote in 2016, we were on Azura in Amsterdam.
The Dutch immigration decided to check all passports before disembarkation.
Starting at the top and working down the decks.
They gave up at A deck because they had totally underestimated how long it would take.

Can you imagine checking passports at every port on Brittania or Iona ?
It would cost them billions in lost spending.

By the way, for balance, the U.K. is accepting Eu passports through e passports.
Good old British common sense.

From doing a Google search, I see that people in the European Economic Area and Switzerland can use the E gates to enter the EU.

We are no longer in the EEA and aren’t Switzerland, so when the transition period ends we’ll be treated like any other nation..

Not sure why it is thought that we should be ‘special’. We left of our own free will, so we lose all the benefits that we had. We’ll have to get used to this concept.

I checked the Government website, and all it says is that the way EU nationals enter the country won’t change until at least 2021, so I couldn’t see anything official to say that EU nationals will be able to carry on using e gates indefinitely after transition ends.

[barney]

It’s not a point of being treated ‘special’ Gill.
Nobody is actually asking for that.

But, much of the European economy is dependent on tourism and much of that tourism comes from the U.K.
Anything and everything that deters us
British from travelling to Europe is to their detriment, not ours.
A couple of bad experiences at say, Spanish airports will make people think, might as well go to Turkey or elsewhere.
Covid has shown how very dependent they are on U.K. tourists.
It’s unnecessary.
Take us cruise types.
If it took you and your husband three hours to disembark in say, Barcelona, you’d probably think, oh well, we’ve been here loads of times before, we’ll just stay on board.
The consequence is no spend into their shops and bars.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Portugal has already said it will make provision for rapid and efficient passport control for the UK. If it's not EU wide they won't be the only individual country to do so.

[barney]

Portugal has already said it will make provision for rapid and efficient passport control for the UK. If it's not EU wide they won't be the only individual country to do so.

I suspect that you are right Merv.

We will probably see lots of bilateral agreements, bypassing Brussels.