Electric cars

[Manoverboard]

We had a low slung GTi when we arrived in Darzet but couldn't see over the ditches or the hedges on the sides of the roads, so a 4 x 4 Toyota it had to be

You little boy racer you. Was it a Golf miniature horse and cart

It was just a phase ... will a trilby hat be appropriate in an electic milk cart car do you think ?

[Kendhni]

When not taking cruise holidays we have a caravan. I can't see towing a caravan with an all electric vehicle being at all viable.

Why not? Electric engines generally turn out a lot more torque than petrol and diesel, and towing is all about the torque. In fact there are several companies developing electric HGVs at the minute which will be towing a lot more weight than a caravan. As always, it will continue to be a case of ensuring you get the right car for the job.

[Mervyn and Trish]

We had a low slung GTi when we arrived in Darzet but couldn't see over the ditches or the hedges on the sides of the roads, so a 4 x 4 Toyota it had to be

You little boy racer you. Was it a Golf miniature horse and cart

It was just a phase ... will a trilby hat be appropriate in an electic milk cart car do you think ?

Never mind a trilby. What about my flat cap?

[towny44]

When not taking cruise holidays we have a caravan. I can't see towing a caravan with an all electric vehicle being at all viable.

Why not? Electric engines generally turn out a lot more torque than petrol and diesel, and towing is all about the torque. In fact there are several companies developing electric HGVs at the minute which will be towing a lot more weight than a caravan. As always, it will continue to be a case of ensuring you get the right car for the job.

Apparently most fail the current standards for towing due mainly to the extra weight of electric vehicles, but towing also impacts the braking recovery efficiency which ev's use to recharge batteries.
The Tesla X is the only one currently approved.

[Manoverboard]

Obviously in 2030 all towing caravans should be abolished in favour of statics which in turn would be positioned on an approved site in the middle of the night. This would save the chaos that will ensue if 500 electric cars were in a stop / start situation in the middle of Norfolk, Cumbria or the West Country. Needless to say Wales amd Scotland would want to keep them, fine but England could then charge a fortune for their transportation within or across our borders.

[Kendhni]

When not taking cruise holidays we have a caravan. I can't see towing a caravan with an all electric vehicle being at all viable.

Why not? Electric engines generally turn out a lot more torque than petrol and diesel, and towing is all about the torque. In fact there are several companies developing electric HGVs at the minute which will be towing a lot more weight than a caravan. As always, it will continue to be a case of ensuring you get the right car for the job.

Apparently most fail the current standards for towing due mainly to the extra weight of electric vehicles, but towing also impacts the braking recovery efficiency which ev's use to recharge batteries.
The Tesla X is the only one currently approved.

Towing improves brake recovery.
The reason many electric cars do not have towing certificates is down to battery longevity and the additional energy required to tow ... so many manufacturers have chosen not to apply for towing certification (or at least until they get longer lasting batteries).
The Audi eTron, Jaguar iPace and Merc EQC also have certificates.

[towny44]

Why not? Electric engines generally turn out a lot more torque than petrol and diesel, and towing is all about the torque. In fact there are several companies developing electric HGVs at the minute which will be towing a lot more weight than a caravan. As always, it will continue to be a case of ensuring you get the right car for the job.

Apparently most fail the current standards for towing due mainly to the extra weight of electric vehicles, but towing also impacts the braking recovery efficiency which ev's use to recharge batteries.
The Tesla X is the only one currently approved.

Towing improves brake recovery.
The reason many electric cars do not have towing certificates is down to battery longevity and the additional energy required to tow ... so many manufacturers have chosen not to apply for towing certification (or at least until they get longer lasting batteries).
The Audi eTron, Jaguar iPace and Merc EQC also have certificates.

My post was based on googled info, so any inaccuracies should be sent to their head office.

[Kendhni]

Apparently most fail the current standards for towing due mainly to the extra weight of electric vehicles, but towing also impacts the braking recovery efficiency which ev's use to recharge batteries.
The Tesla X is the only one currently approved.

Towing improves brake recovery.
The reason many electric cars do not have towing certificates is down to battery longevity and the additional energy required to tow ... so many manufacturers have chosen not to apply for towing certification (or at least until they get longer lasting batteries).
The Audi eTron, Jaguar iPace and Merc EQC also have certificates.

My post was based on googled info, so any inaccuracies should be sent to their head office.

Just goes to show that google doesn't always give the right answer
My favourite monthly magazine is WhatCar which did an excellent article on electric cars and towing a couple of months back.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Whenever there's a debate about electric cars the answer is always along the lines of that's not a problem with the Tesla/Jaguar/Audi/Merc etc. The problem for me with all of those is I can't afford them. Poinr me towards a decent spec 1 year old electric car with a range of around 300 miles and less than 15,000 on the clock for under £15,000 (easily achievable with a petrol or diesel engine) and I'll show more interest.

[Kendhni]

Just as I thought. I would have thought it would be easier to put in the infrastructure for hydrogen using current filling stations rather than the millions of charging points which take time to charge up the motors. At the moment it seems the emphasis is more on electricity for some reason or another, whether that is to do with production of the hydrogen, storage, safety concerns or just lack of investment at the moment I know not. I know there are buses which are driven by hydrogen so I wondered what the situation is for motor vehicles.

My understanding is that electric is not the end game, it is just a stop-gap. The production of batteries requires the use of multiple rare-earth metals which have limited supply, on the plus side these are mostly capable of being recycled. Technology-wise hydrogen and other concepts may well be the end game, but the relevant technology is not currently advanced enough.

However, infrastructure-wise it is likely that car ownership will wane. Going forward, large corporations will own fleets of small autonomous vehicles (Uber, Musk and others are positioning themselves for this). The idea being that you simply press a few keys on your mobile phone and within minutes a vehicle of the required size will take a payment, turn up at your door, take you to where you want to be and go on to its next call. While a little bit more planning may be required the other advantages are numerous ... there will be significantly fewer vehicles on the road (reducing congestion and costs of Infrastructure); at the minute about 80% of all car journeys are considered to be 'unnecessary', many of these will go; more area is freed up for housing (since there is no need for driveways, on street parking etc.)

Something needs to be done about pollution and the environment and this is one of many steps that will be seen over the next 50 years. Parents and grandparents need to start thinking of their children and grand children and stop their selfish denial and penny pinching attitude thinking this will only affect others, or there is some magical technology that will resolve the issue. Our generation's laissez faire attitude towards the environment has already caused the damage that the next generation (your children and grand children) will be impacted by and have to deal with (this is no longer something that is in the distant future and can be kicked down the road again). At the minute the question is 'can the damage already done be reversed?' ... and there is growing evidence that we may already be too late.

[Manoverboard]

So .... when planning a tour in the UK remember to book an extra room for the driver.

It's bound to catch on

[towny44]

So .... when planning a tour in the UK remember to book an extra room for the driver.

It's bound to catch on

You can't fault Ken for forward thinking ideas, there's just one problem he overlooks and that's public acceptance. I cannot foresee his ideas taking off unless he can re-educate the masses, and many people have tried and failed over the years.

[oldbluefox]

Whatever Ken predicts I don't think it will be in my day
and I doubt it will be in his day either so we will never find out whether he is right or wrong. It seems to me a lot of money to be spending on electrics if it is just a stop gap. If the technology already exists for hydrogen power and is being used for buses, and the basic infrastructure exists with service stations there must be some reason why the government (and previous governments) have not pushed this further. Certainly the days of fossil fuels are limited which must be a concern for the oil producers of the Middle East/Africa/USA etc.

[towny44]

I agree Foxy, I think the future should be hydrogen electric hybrids for all cars, no need for charging points and we can keep the filling stations, they just need converting to hydrogen. Do away with the infernal combustion engines, replace with a hydrogen powered electric generator, and have minimum sized batteries, to reduce rare earth demands.
Now what's Boris's e-mail?

[david63]

An interesting point is with Toyota which, as we all know, were the front runners with hybrid technology and were, probably still are, years ahead of their rivals - although the gap is closing.

Toyota saw the next logical step as being hydrogen fuel cell technology and they completely bypassed the all electric vehicle only to be "caught short" and are now rushing to produce an all electric vehicle.

[Stephen]

A little run around for the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJubab5MS_E

[Kendhni]

So .... when planning a tour in the UK remember to book an extra room for the driver.

It's bound to catch on

You can't fault Ken for forward thinking ideas, there's just one problem he overlooks and that's public acceptance. I cannot foresee his ideas taking off unless he can re-educate the masses, and many people have tried and failed over the years.

Much as I would love to take the credit for this forward thinking I can't - it is coming from planning documents published by our own, and other, governments - plus visionaries like Uber, Musk, Gates etc. The government does not need to educate the masses, just the next generation. This is already happening with more acceptance of public and alternative forms of transport - the old generation that are too busy shaking fists and walking sticks at anything and everything will have shuffled off their mortal coil before they need the education.

Similar with HS2 - the old diehard luddites are whinging and throwing toys around like silly old codgers, but it isn't being built for them. It is being built for the next generation, that is who will use it and NEED it. It is based on projections of people and goods movement in 2-3 decades from now. Same as when our own road infrastructure was being built back in the 60's and 70's, those with no forward vision protested and said it wasn't needed, but now it is reaching, and sometimes exceeding, capacity.

[Kendhni]

An interesting point is with Toyota which, as we all know, were the front runners with hybrid technology and were, probably still are, years ahead of their rivals - although the gap is closing.

I think Kia/Hyundai overtook Toyota a few years back. The Europeans though may still be playing catch up, but with the interconnections and shared ownership within the car trade these days the technology is probably flowing freely.

[oldbluefox]

more acceptance of public and alternative forms of transport - the old generation that are too busy shaking fists and walking sticks at anything and everything will have shuffled off their mortal coil before they need the education.

I think your observations of the situation are different to mine Ken. My experience is that the first objective of the younger generation once they are old enough is to have driving lessons and then have their own car (often financed via the bank of mum and dad) rather than a bus/train ticket. Bear in mind that public transport for many is not a viable option as it is either limited or non existent.

Similar with HS2 - the old diehard luddites are whinging and throwing toys around like silly old codgers, but it isn't being built for them. It is being built for the next generation, that is who will use it and NEED it.

I would suggest the money spent on HS2, another link into an already overcrowded city, would be better spent on improving links between other cities which have for too long been denied the funding to prosper as they should. Many of these cities away from London and the south east are still serviced by antiquated and out of date rail systems which constantly break down and are simply not up to the task. Get even further away and you will find rural systems which are even more antiquated with rolling stock which should have been consigned to the knackers yard years ago. Instead we invest vast sums of money to satisfy the whims of the London commuters.
In short upgrade and update the systems we already have which will benefit the many, not the few.

[david63]

To some extent I would agree with OBF in regard to HS2 but I would be more inclined to put the project on hold for a couple of years (after all it has been going on for enough years that another couple will not make any difference) and then have a total review of the rail requirements post Covid, and even if I dare mention it - Brexit.

If, as many suggest, that there will be more working from home then that will, one way or another, impact on the rail requirement. Similarly if video conferencing becomes the "norm" then that may also impact the rail services.

[Kendhni]

I suggest that the planners and those with the numbers and stats to hand will understand a lot better than any of us - and they seem to think that it is capital expenditure that is needed. Todays generation have to stop being so selfish and start thinking of what will be needed .. that is why we have planners and modellers looking at population movement and infrastructure needs into the future. Sometimes new thinking is needed rather than the continual patching up of systems that are barely fit for purpose today .. not to worry tomorrow.

[Kendhni]

more acceptance of public and alternative forms of transport - the old generation that are too busy shaking fists and walking sticks at anything and everything will have shuffled off their mortal coil before they need the education.

I think your observations of the situation are different to mine Ken. My experience is that the first objective of the younger generation once they are old enough is to have driving lessons and then have their own car (often financed via the bank of mum and dad) rather than a bus/train ticket. Bear in mind that public transport for many is not a viable option as it is either limited or non existent.

Similar with HS2 - the old diehard luddites are whinging and throwing toys around like silly old codgers, but it isn't being built for them. It is being built for the next generation, that is who will use it and NEED it.

I would suggest the money spent on HS2, another link into an already overcrowded city, would be better spent on improving links between other cities which have for too long been denied the funding to prosper as they should. Many of these cities away from London and the south east are still serviced by antiquated and out of date rail systems which constantly break down and are simply not up to the task. Get even further away and you will find rural systems which are even more antiquated with rolling stock which should have been consigned to the knackers yard years ago. Instead we invest vast sums of money to satisfy the whims of the London commuters.
In short upgrade and update the systems we already have which will benefit the many, not the few.

Interesting that you managed to put forward your own argument and then destroy it in a single post.

[Manoverboard]

These so called visionaries use their think tanks to project the way forward with new ideas in order that they maximise their own profits. Fact and nothing to do with me being a trainee Luddite.

[oldbluefox]

more acceptance of public and alternative forms of transport - the old generation that are too busy shaking fists and walking sticks at anything and everything will have shuffled off their mortal coil before they need the education.

I think your observations of the situation are different to mine Ken. My experience is that the first objective of the younger generation once they are old enough is to have driving lessons and then have their own car (often financed via the bank of mum and dad) rather than a bus/train ticket. Bear in mind that public transport for many is not a viable option as it is either limited or non existent.

Similar with HS2 - the old diehard luddites are whinging and throwing toys around like silly old codgers, but it isn't being built for them. It is being built for the next generation, that is who will use it and NEED it.

I would suggest the money spent on HS2, another link into an already overcrowded city, would be better spent on improving links between other cities which have for too long been denied the funding to prosper as they should. Many of these cities away from London and the south east are still serviced by antiquated and out of date rail systems which constantly break down and are simply not up to the task. Get even further away and you will find rural systems which are even more antiquated with rolling stock which should have been consigned to the knackers yard years ago. Instead we invest vast sums of money to satisfy the whims of the London commuters.
In short upgrade and update the systems we already have which will benefit the many, not the few.

Interesting that you managed to put forward your own argument and then destroy it in a single post.

I think you need to read it again Ken.

[david63]

Well having read about the "planners/modellers" this week saying that all of the data was wrong over Covid I would not trust them come up with anything viable.