Life After Brexit

[towny44]

Not quite the same but I remember reading the headline of a paper (can't remember which one but that is irrelevant) some years ago whilst waiting to board a ship at Southampton, which said "Home Secretary admits he does not know how many illegal immigrants are in the country"!!

If they have entered illegally and under the radar, it’s actually impossible to put an accurate figure on it.
Similarly, Eu citizens could come and go freely and totally legally.
We have never had any control over Eu immigration, despite what our resident know it all says.
If they wanted to come, they could legally come.
Had we attempted to block that, the U.K. would have been acting illegally.

Get you facts right Barney. We could have had control over EU immigration but your government chose not to on the grounds of cost. Any stay by an EU citizen is limited to three months unless they are economically active, self-sufficient or in full time studies.

Other countries rigidly enforced this time limit. The UK didn’t think it was worth the bother.

How do they do this QB, most airports operate electronic passport checks, and no one asks you to provide an address where you are staying.
Do these countries that rigidly enforce this rule all employ mystic Megs in their immigration service to find these over stayers?

[barney]

Not quite the same but I remember reading the headline of a paper (can't remember which one but that is irrelevant) some years ago whilst waiting to board a ship at Southampton, which said "Home Secretary admits he does not know how many illegal immigrants are in the country"!!

If they have entered illegally and under the radar, it’s actually impossible to put an accurate figure on it.
Similarly, Eu citizens could come and go freely and totally legally.
We have never had any control over Eu immigration, despite what our resident know it all says.
If they wanted to come, they could legally come.
Had we attempted to block that, the U.K. would have been acting illegally.

Get you facts right Barney. We could have had control over EU immigration but your government chose not to on the grounds of cost. Any stay by an EU citizen is limited to three months unless they are economically active, self-sufficient or in full time studies.

Other countries rigidly enforced this time limit. The UK didn’t think it was worth the bother.

With respect, that’s absolutely rubbish.
There is absolutely no restrictions on Eu citizens entering the U.K..
And another correction is it’s our government unless you live outside the U.K., not mine.

[screwy]

It’s a bit like Trump on here at times...
Referendum held,one side won, the other cried foul, jumps up and down demanding a replay,refusing to go quietly ie, we know best.

Oh dear. Rightly or wrongly we’re leaving.Suck it up and get over it.

Try to keep up, we actually left at the start of the year.

I know that Ken, it’s just a shame some on here don’t yet realise it.

[Kendhni]

As I said to someone else, we have always had the ability to choose who we give jobs to, but, for various reasons, our government chose not to exercise that ability. Looking at the latest proposals from Johnson they are unlikely to make much of a difference, only about one-third of immigrants came from EU countries.

Not entirely true in the NHS Ken, where I worked for a number of years. The NHS was obliged under EU law to accept EU health qualifications as equivalent to UK qualifications. Non EU applicants had a much more stringent examination of their ability to do the job. No-one said we had to accept them. This was reflected (badly) in the disproportionate number of EU nationals who found themselves in front of the regulatory bodies, such as the GMC, when it all went wrong. As it did on a number of occasions with disastrous consequences.

However the point you make illustrates the arrogance of politicians on all sides I've pointed out before. When people raised concerns about any aspect of immigration it was swept under the carpet, or worse derided as in the famous Gordon Brown "Bigot" incident. Had the politicians taken advantage of the powers you say that they had within the EU, we might not now be where we are. Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron with their heads buried in the Islington sand all bear more responsibility for the Leave vote than Johnson or Farage.

I meant it a bit more figuratively rather than literally - I still do not understand why, given public opinion, we did not exercise the laws that we had available to us. Even when Cameron went to the EU with his shopping list, on the point on immigration, the EU told him to start utilising the laws available to him.

It has always made me think that there is a bigger picture that us mere mortals do not understand. The only thing I can think of is that we know there is a pension crisis and if we do not have the numbers paying taxes then it is going to come crumbling down (particular many of the public sector pension schemes which are are basically ponzi schemes).

The other possible reason that I have read, and I have no idea on whether or it is true or not, is reports that say Blair was trying to increase his voter base by actually incentivising people to migrate to the UK. Who knows?

[Kendhni]

We were told over 10 years ago that we had no idea of migration in and out of this country.

Not quite the same but I remember reading the headline of a paper (can't remember which one but that is irrelevant) some years ago whilst waiting to board a ship at Southampton, which said "Home Secretary admits he does not know how many illegal immigrants are in the country"!!

If they have entered illegally and under the radar, it’s actually impossible to put an accurate figure on it.
Similarly, Eu citizens could come and go freely and totally legally.
We have never had any control over Eu immigration, despite what our resident know it all says.
If they wanted to come, they could legally come.
Had we attempted to block that, the U.K. would have been acting illegally.

Ignorance and making things up will never replace knowledge when it comes to facts.

EU Directive 2004/38/EC gave us the control over EU immigration in exactly the way the electorate has been demanding. In the government response to a question it was clearly stated that "If an EU citizen does not meet one of the requirements for residence set out in the Directive [employed, self-employed, self-sufficient, student] then they will not have a right to reside in the UK and may be removed.”. The question you should be asking is why the government did not use the powers it had.

Sadly the burning legacy and ignorance of Farage's 'Breaking Point' poster lives on in some in the UK - simply because they obviously have no desire to inform themselves.

On the other hand the majority of immigrants did not come from the EU and Johnson's stated policies will make no difference to this flow.

[Kendhni]

We were told over 10 years ago that we had no idea of migration in and out of this country.

Not quite the same but I remember reading the headline of a paper (can't remember which one but that is irrelevant) some years ago whilst waiting to board a ship at Southampton, which said "Home Secretary admits he does not know how many illegal immigrants are in the country"!!

I believe more than one Home Secretary has had to admit to that.
A real irony is that it has been said that under the proposed changes Priti Patel's parents would not have been allowed into the country.

[Kendhni]

There is a huge irony under the new immigration proposals. Without an agreement then the UK will lose access to EU database of known criminals and illegal activities. This was actually questioned in the HoC a few weeks back. The minister tried to duck and dive from the question but when pushed he ultimately had to admit that their replacement was (and try not to laugh at this) that they would ask those arriving in the UK to fill in a form.

That is this governments new immigration policy, reliance upon criminal self-certification.
Be afraid ... be very afraid

If I find the video of the HoC exchange again I will post it.

[towny44]

Not quite the same but I remember reading the headline of a paper (can't remember which one but that is irrelevant) some years ago whilst waiting to board a ship at Southampton, which said "Home Secretary admits he does not know how many illegal immigrants are in the country"!!

If they have entered illegally and under the radar, it’s actually impossible to put an accurate figure on it.
Similarly, Eu citizens could come and go freely and totally legally.
We have never had any control over Eu immigration, despite what our resident know it all says.
If they wanted to come, they could legally come.
Had we attempted to block that, the U.K. would have been acting illegally.

Ignorance and making things up will never replace knowledge when it comes to facts.

EU Directive 2004/38/EC gave us the control over EU immigration in exactly the way the electorate has been demanding. In the government response to a question it was clearly stated that "If an EU citizen does not meet one of the requirements for residence set out in the Directive [employed, self-employed, self-sufficient, student] then they will not have a right to reside in the UK and may be removed.”. The question you should be asking is why the government did not use the powers it had.

Sadly the burning legacy and ignorance of Farage's 'Breaking Point' poster lives on in some in the UK - simply because they obviously have no desire to inform themselves.

On the other hand the majority of immigrants did not come from the EU and Johnson's stated policies will make no difference to this flow.

Ken,I note that despite replying to all and sundry, you have not answered my question. So here goes again, its all very well having the legal powers to remove people, but do we, or any country, have the manpower to police and enact that legislation.
I imagine the courts might well have tried to use this to deport Rumanian gangsters, but you can bet some scurrilous human rights lawyer would have fought tooth and nail, with oodles of legal aid lolly, to keep him here.
However since the vast majority of EU immigrants seem to be hard working taxpayers, no one has ever bothered, but in future I do hope that there is some system put in place to ensure any immigrant has a bone fide job offer, and that our border force have the time and resources to vet all applicants to ensure bad apples are denied a visa, or work permit, or whatever they decide to call it.

[oldbluefox]

If the country has the amount of autonomy our Remainer friends say we have, the ability to veto any decisions we don't like, to control our borders as we wish then I don't see why we need an irrelevance such as the EU and yet another layer of administration and governance. Why not form trading deals and trade with the EU much as we would with any other country and cooperate on those issues which are essential to the security and beneficence of both parties without needing to be in each others' pockets?
Having voted for Brexit and listened to the arguments put forward by the Remain side I am even more convinced that my initial decision was the right one. Ironically it is the Remainers who have reinforced my thinking.

[Manoverboard]

Dealing with the EU on immigration was like trying to convince Kendhni that he is ever wrong .... complete waste of time on both counts. We will, as a Country, soon be able to impose restrictions as we see fit albeit it will take time but at least we can start to impose our will without being overuled by Judges from afar.

Bring it on I say

[Kendhni]

Dealing with the EU on immigration was like trying to convince Kendhni that he is ever wrong .... complete waste of time on both counts. We will, as a Country, soon be able to impose restrictions as we see fit albeit it will take time but at least we can start to impose our will without being overuled by Judges from afar.

Bring it on I say

Hey Roger, You have sent me warnings for less

[Kendhni]

If they have entered illegally and under the radar, it’s actually impossible to put an accurate figure on it.
Similarly, Eu citizens could come and go freely and totally legally.
We have never had any control over Eu immigration, despite what our resident know it all says.
If they wanted to come, they could legally come.
Had we attempted to block that, the U.K. would have been acting illegally.

Ignorance and making things up will never replace knowledge when it comes to facts.

EU Directive 2004/38/EC gave us the control over EU immigration in exactly the way the electorate has been demanding. In the government response to a question it was clearly stated that "If an EU citizen does not meet one of the requirements for residence set out in the Directive [employed, self-employed, self-sufficient, student] then they will not have a right to reside in the UK and may be removed.”. The question you should be asking is why the government did not use the powers it had.

Sadly the burning legacy and ignorance of Farage's 'Breaking Point' poster lives on in some in the UK - simply because they obviously have no desire to inform themselves.

On the other hand the majority of immigrants did not come from the EU and Johnson's stated policies will make no difference to this flow.

Ken,I note that despite replying to all and sundry, you have not answered my question. So here goes again, its all very well having the legal powers to remove people, but do we, or any country, have the manpower to police and enact that legislation.

That is an internal issue and no amount of brexitting will change that.

I imagine the courts might well have tried to use this to deport Rumanian gangsters, but you can bet some scurrilous human rights lawyer would have fought tooth and nail, with oodles of legal aid lolly, to keep him here.
However since the vast majority of EU immigrants seem to be hard working taxpayers, no one has ever bothered, but in future I do hope that there is some system put in place to ensure any immigrant has a bone fide job offer, and that our border force have the time and resources to vet all applicants to ensure bad apples are denied a visa, or work permit, or whatever they decide to call it.

As I said the governments new policy is to ask them and get them to self declare that they are bad apples. Apart from that what you are saying is exactly the powers we have had for many many years but CHOSE not use them.

[towny44]

Ignorance and making things up will never replace knowledge when it comes to facts.

EU Directive 2004/38/EC gave us the control over EU immigration in exactly the way the electorate has been demanding. In the government response to a question it was clearly stated that "If an EU citizen does not meet one of the requirements for residence set out in the Directive [employed, self-employed, self-sufficient, student] then they will not have a right to reside in the UK and may be removed.”. The question you should be asking is why the government did not use the powers it had.

Sadly the burning legacy and ignorance of Farage's 'Breaking Point' poster lives on in some in the UK - simply because they obviously have no desire to inform themselves.

On the other hand the majority of immigrants did not come from the EU and Johnson's stated policies will make no difference to this flow.

Ken,I note that despite replying to all and sundry, you have not answered my question. So here goes again, its all very well having the legal powers to remove people, but do we, or any country, have the manpower to police and enact that legislation.

That is an internal issue and no amount of brexitting will change that.

I imagine the courts might well have tried to use this to deport Rumanian gangsters, but you can bet some scurrilous human rights lawyer would have fought tooth and nail, with oodles of legal aid lolly, to keep him here.
However since the vast majority of EU immigrants seem to be hard working taxpayers, no one has ever bothered, but in future I do hope that there is some system put in place to ensure any immigrant has a bone fide job offer, and that our border force have the time and resources to vet all applicants to ensure bad apples are denied a visa, or work permit, or whatever they decide to call it.

As I said the governments new policy is to ask them and get them to self declare that they are bad apples. Apart from that what you are saying is exactly the powers we have had for many many years but CHOSE not use them.

Not strictly true Ken since with freedom of movement we followed the rest of the EU in having a fast track EU passport holders lane where checks, other than the passport being valid, were non existent, and certainly did not include taking any details of where possible immigrants were going to work or live. Those choosing to find legal employment would find their way into the NI and tax system but clearly these were never going to be a problem. However gangsters and those going into cash only jobs were lost to the system forever, unless and until they were arrested, by which time in both cases the damage had already been done.
Hopefully any new system will weed the latter ones out at source.

[Manoverboard]

Dealing with the EU on immigration was like trying to convince Kendhni that he is ever wrong .... complete waste of time on both counts. We will, as a Country, soon be able to impose restrictions as we see fit albeit it will take time but at least we can start to impose our will without being overuled by Judges from afar.

Bring it on I say

Hey Roger, You have sent me warnings for less

Other than that one sided and inaccurate comment I trust you will join me in celebrating that .... " We will, as a Country, soon be able to impose restrictions as we see fit albeit it will take time but at least we can start to impose our will without being overuled by Judges from afar "

[Kendhni]

Ken,I note that despite replying to all and sundry, you have not answered my question. So here goes again, its all very well having the legal powers to remove people, but do we, or any country, have the manpower to police and enact that legislation.

That is an internal issue and no amount of brexitting will change that.

I imagine the courts might well have tried to use this to deport Rumanian gangsters, but you can bet some scurrilous human rights lawyer would have fought tooth and nail, with oodles of legal aid lolly, to keep him here.
However since the vast majority of EU immigrants seem to be hard working taxpayers, no one has ever bothered, but in future I do hope that there is some system put in place to ensure any immigrant has a bone fide job offer, and that our border force have the time and resources to vet all applicants to ensure bad apples are denied a visa, or work permit, or whatever they decide to call it.

As I said the governments new policy is to ask them and get them to self declare that they are bad apples. Apart from that what you are saying is exactly the powers we have had for many many years but CHOSE not use them.

Not strictly true Ken since with freedom of movement we followed the rest of the EU in having a fast track EU passport holders lane where checks, other than the passport being valid, were non existent, and certainly did not include taking any details of where possible immigrants were going to work or live. Those choosing to find legal employment would find their way into the NI and tax system but clearly these were never going to be a problem. However gangsters and those going into cash only jobs were lost to the system forever, unless and until they were arrested, by which time in both cases the damage had already been done.
Hopefully any new system will weed the latter ones out at source.

You need to go back and try to learn how the system works. As a starter, try reading up on the SIS database and how it is currently used to fight crime across many countries. This is one of several that, without an agreement, we may lose access to. If memory serves me right our police and security forces made over 500million searches in 2019 using this database.

As I have said previously, the governments response to this is asking criminals arriving into this country to let border forces know by filling in the appropriate section of a form - that is currently 'the new system' - how many of your gangsters do you think are going to tick the box saying 'I am a criminal'. However maybe in 10-20 years we may have a comparable new system in place.

[towny44]

You need to go back and try to learn how the system works. As a starter, try reading up on the SIS database and how it is currently used to fight crime across many countries. This is one of several that, without an agreement, we may lose access to. If memory serves me right our police and security forces made over 500million searches in 2019 using this database.

As I have said previously, the governments response to this is asking criminals arriving into this country to let border forces know by filling in the appropriate section of a form - that is currently 'the new system' - how many of your gangsters do you think are going to tick the box saying 'I am a criminal'. However maybe in 10-20 years we may have a comparable new system in place.

If the EU SIS system is so bloody good, how come we have so many east European gangsters terrorising people, when they keep popping over on a flying visit to do a spot of burglary. You continually pontificate on how good EU systems are, so how is it crime is still such a major industry in the entire EU.

[Kendhni]

Dealing with the EU on immigration was like trying to convince Kendhni that he is ever wrong .... complete waste of time on both counts. We will, as a Country, soon be able to impose restrictions as we see fit albeit it will take time but at least we can start to impose our will without being overuled by Judges from afar.

Bring it on I say

Hey Roger, You have sent me warnings for less

Other than that one sided and inaccurate comment I trust you will join me in celebrating that .... " We will, as a Country, soon be able to impose restrictions as we see fit albeit it will take time but at least we can start to impose our will without being overuled by Judges from afar "

I stand by my comment (I have downloaded my private mails ... just in case).

You are clutching at straws with your comment. We have always been able to impose restrictions as we saw fit ... but chose not to. Unfortunately if we lose access to shared systems then we will lose, or at least seriously hinder, that ability for many years to come. But after some time we will be able to impose our will but it may still have to face scrutiny in various courts and may still ultimately be overruled by judges from afar. Each country, including our own, will protect its own interests and to expect that brexit is going to make much of a difference to that is just stupidity.

BTW, it is me that has continually fact checked others that have relied on nothing more than brexit lies and fairy tales in their postings.

[Kendhni]

You need to go back and try to learn how the system works. As a starter, try reading up on the SIS database and how it is currently used to fight crime across many countries. This is one of several that, without an agreement, we may lose access to. If memory serves me right our police and security forces made over 500million searches in 2019 using this database.

As I have said previously, the governments response to this is asking criminals arriving into this country to let border forces know by filling in the appropriate section of a form - that is currently 'the new system' - how many of your gangsters do you think are going to tick the box saying 'I am a criminal'. However maybe in 10-20 years we may have a comparable new system in place.

If the EU SIS system is so bloody good, how come we have so many east European gangsters terrorising people, when they keep popping over on a flying visit to do a spot of burglary. You continually pontificate on how good EU systems are, so how is it crime is still such a major industry in the entire EU.

Seriously?????? Are you going for the dumbest question ever to have been asked on the internet?

Let me put your prevarication into some perspective. I passed no comment on how good or otherwise the European system was (that is yet again just something you made up). All I stated was that we could lose access to such systems which could seriously hinder our ability to disrupt criminal activity especially in relation to immigrants. Maybe they are as useless as you seem to think, but our crime fighters consider them important enough to use millions of times every year.

As a well known terrorist once said 'You have to get lucky every time, we only have to get lucky once'. Without these systems how many more criminals do you think would be running around. Only a fool thinks they are going to catch everyone, but living in a (relatively) free democracy that supports human rights there are other factors, such as evidence and witnesses, also required.

[towny44]

You need to go back and try to learn how the system works. As a starter, try reading up on the SIS database and how it is currently used to fight crime across many countries. This is one of several that, without an agreement, we may lose access to. If memory serves me right our police and security forces made over 500million searches in 2019 using this database.

As I have said previously, the governments response to this is asking criminals arriving into this country to let border forces know by filling in the appropriate section of a form - that is currently 'the new system' - how many of your gangsters do you think are going to tick the box saying 'I am a criminal'. However maybe in 10-20 years we may have a comparable new system in place.

If the EU SIS system is so bloody good, how come we have so many east European gangsters terrorising people, when they keep popping over on a flying visit to do a spot of burglary. You continually pontificate on how good EU systems are, so how is it crime is still such a major industry in the entire EU.

Seriously?????? Are you going for the dumbest question ever to have been asked on the internet?

Let me put your prevarication into some perspective. I passed no comment on how good or otherwise the European system was (that is yet again just something you made up). All I stated was that we could lose access to such systems which could seriously hinder our ability to disrupt criminal activity especially in relation to immigrants. Maybe they are as useless as you seem to think, but our crime fighters consider them important enough to use millions of times every year.

As a well known terrorist once said 'You have to get lucky every time, we only have to get lucky once'. Without these systems how many more criminals do you think would be running around. Only a fool thinks they are going to catch everyone, but living in a (relatively) free democracy that supports human rights there are other factors, such as evidence and witnesses, also required.

You win Ken I give up, your stupidity seems even greater than mine.

[Kendhni]

If the EU SIS system is so bloody good, how come we have so many east European gangsters terrorising people, when they keep popping over on a flying visit to do a spot of burglary. You continually pontificate on how good EU systems are, so how is it crime is still such a major industry in the entire EU.

Seriously?????? Are you going for the dumbest question ever to have been asked on the internet?

Let me put your prevarication into some perspective. I passed no comment on how good or otherwise the European system was (that is yet again just something you made up). All I stated was that we could lose access to such systems which could seriously hinder our ability to disrupt criminal activity especially in relation to immigrants. Maybe they are as useless as you seem to think, but our crime fighters consider them important enough to use millions of times every year.

As a well known terrorist once said 'You have to get lucky every time, we only have to get lucky once'. Without these systems how many more criminals do you think would be running around. Only a fool thinks they are going to catch everyone, but living in a (relatively) free democracy that supports human rights there are other factors, such as evidence and witnesses, also required.

You win Ken I give up, your stupidity seems even greater than mine.

If you cant defend your position because all you have is what you have made up and proven misinformation then expect to be taken to task.
I actually expected a bit more from you, but rather than informing yourself you just regurgitate the media programming you have obviously received - that is why on numerous occasions I have had no choice but to fact check you.

[Manoverboard]

You win Ken I give up, your stupidity seems even greater than mine.

There's no doubting it Towny John ... we're all stupid except the ' Special One ' of course

ps ... great result for the Terriers eh

[barney]

You win Ken I give up, your stupidity seems even greater than mine.

There's no doubting it Towny John ... we're all stupid except the ' Special One ' of course

ps ... great result for the Terriers eh

Shame there is not an ignore button .
I find this Remoaner even more nauseating than most of them.
Maybe he’s right and the entire country will go to the dogs and the 4 million plus Eu citizens will no longer wish to stay.
Maybe he can go and join them.
Must be awful to live in a country that you obviously despise.
Meanwhile, good honest people will continue to attempt to make things better.

[towny44]

You win Ken I give up, your stupidity seems even greater than mine.

There's no doubting it Towny John ... we're all stupid except the ' Special One ' of course

ps ... great result for the Terriers eh

A great win for Watford as well, no wonder we are both happy.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Good to see everyone still playing nicely here

[screwy]

It won’t last....