Muses on a sad day . . .

[Silver_Shiney]

PTE
I saw it and read it
very restrained on your part
Kudos to the Eagle

I'll second that

[oldbluefox]

Yesterday, in London, we saw all that was good about being British. Then we saw Goldborne which demonstrated to me why we needed Margaret Thatcher.

[Manoverboard]

... Exactly Moby, those of us that can detach ourselves from the "hatred" that many show towards Baroness |Thatcher would not deny any other Prime Minister the right to a state/ceremonial funeral ..it's called being "grown up"

WOW how self righteous

Self Righteous not at all John but I am realistic

Sorry but what you are actually saying is that anyone who cannot detach themselves from their hatred towards Thatcher is not grown up.

Surely that is self righteous ?

I would say it is, or can be, immature or a desire to adopt a victim mentatlity ... but whatever it is it eats away at the person and makes them bitter.

Therefore dwelling in the past does perhaps demonstrate an inability or unwillingness to grow up and face reality .... thirty years on !!

[Boris+]

One thing I couldn't understand from yesterday - the behaviour of one man and his wife. I am well used to situations where people who are part of the 'main players' in a set event 'meet and greet' other attendees. I saw Sir Mark Thatcher and his family standing outside after the service and shaking hands and talking to people, and that was perfectly correct.

What I couldn't understand - and let me make it clear right here and now that I have no political axe to grind in this context - what on earth was Tony Blair and his wife doing standing immediately outside the door and appearing to 'meet and greet' attendees as they left the building? It wasn't about him or his wife - they were just people who were invited, it just looked wrong - in my opinion he would have behaved better if he had done that at the reception.

I know I have possibly got it wrong, and apologies for that - but it just didn't sit right with me.

Em

[ChesterfieldJohn]

... Exactly Moby, those of us that can detach ourselves from the "hatred" that many show towards Baroness |Thatcher would not deny any other Prime Minister the right to a state/ceremonial funeral ..it's called being "grown up"

WOW how self righteous

Self Righteous not at all John but I am realistic

Sorry but what you are actually saying is that anyone who cannot detach themselves from their hatred towards Thatcher is not grown up.

Surely that is self righteous ?

I would say it is, or can be, immature or a desire to adopt a victim mentatlity ... but whatever it is it eats away at the person and makes them bitter.

Therefore dwelling in the past does perhaps demonstrate an inability or unwillingness to grow up and face reality .... thirty years on !!

PTE described reality perfectly above.

Or do you mean face your version of reality?

[Mo2013]

This forum would be up in arms if it was Tony Blair, it is clear from the comments that the majority of posters are Tories.

Quite possibly because unlike Mrs Thatcher, Tony Blair was more interested in self promotion and really did not achieve much apart from going on a spending spree with the money he inherited from the previous government ... then after he had emptied the coffers he kept on spending. Many on the left obviously agree that his government was weaK, incompetent and ineffective since they are still blaming Thatcher for everything.

Whether or not it is deemed he deserves one at some later date will be determined by others.

But for all those whining and whinging about the cost, many who are had the money to spend on champagne and music they will never listen to, then like verything else it copmes from pooled resources. What next they will complain about funding the royals, complain about funding education (those without children), complain about funding child care (ditto), complain about funding roads (those that do not drive), complain about funding old people homes, complain about funding pensions that were not paid for, complain about funding wars, complain about funding the work shy etc. etc. etc.

We all have to pay for things that we do not need or want ... for those that can not get their small minds round that concept then I will pay their contribution towards Thatchers funeral, if they pay extra towards keeping pedophiles in luxury in prison (which is something I don't like paying for), or maybe contribute extra towards the work shy (which I begrudge paying for).

The problem with the majority of people who believe in one party, in my opinion, is that they only see one side of any argument/discussion.

That argument also applies to union members who have been told by the unions to point the blame at Thatchers - the same unions that are the real reason why much of our industry was decimated ... that was the start of the culture of 'it is always somebody elses fault'.

I don't agree. What about those people who were left without a job, who tried as hard as they could but never recovered ? Some will say that we are still living with the (not good) legacy of MT's policies. What about those pensioners who cruise several times a year but still take the Winter Fuel Allowance? Yes, we all pay towards the things you cite, but we don't all contribute to an individual's funeral. Harold Wilson had a very humble laying to rest but Margaret Thatcher wanted a spectacle and all that entailed and since she espoused that individuals must take responsibility for themselves, then she and her family should have borne the entire cost of her funeral.

[ChesterfieldJohn]

This forum would be up in arms if it was Tony Blair, it is clear from the comments that the majority of posters are Tories.

Quite possibly because unlike Mrs Thatcher, Tony Blair was more interested in self promotion and really did not achieve much apart from going on a spending spree with the money he inherited from the previous government ... then after he had emptied the coffers he kept on spending. Many on the left obviously agree that his government was weaK, incompetent and ineffective since they are still blaming Thatcher for everything.

Whether or not it is deemed he deserves one at some later date will be determined by others.

But for all those whining and whinging about the cost, many who are had the money to spend on champagne and music they will never listen to, then like verything else it copmes from pooled resources. What next they will complain about funding the royals, complain about funding education (those without children), complain about funding child care (ditto), complain about funding roads (those that do not drive), complain about funding old people homes, complain about funding pensions that were not paid for, complain about funding wars, complain about funding the work shy etc. etc. etc.

We all have to pay for things that we do not need or want ... for those that can not get their small minds round that concept then I will pay their contribution towards Thatchers funeral, if they pay extra towards keeping pedophiles in luxury in prison (which is something I don't like paying for), or maybe contribute extra towards the work shy (which I begrudge paying for).

The problem with the majority of people who believe in one party, in my opinion, is that they only see one side of any argument/discussion.

That argument also applies to union members who have been told by the unions to point the blame at Thatchers - the same unions that are the real reason why much of our industry was decimated ... that was the start of the culture of 'it is always somebody elses fault'.

I don't agree. What about those people who were left without a job, who tried as hard as they could but never recovered ? Some will say that we are still living with the (not good) legacy of MT's policies. What about those pensioners who cruise several times a year but still take the Winter Fuel Allowance? Yes, we all pay towards the things you cite, but we don't all contribute to an individual's funeral. Harold Wilson had a very humble laying to rest but Margaret Thatcher wanted a spectacle and all that entailed and since she espoused that individuals must take responsibility for themselves, then she and her family should have borne the entire cost of her funeral.

Mo every critiscism on here is pointless.
'Theres none so blind as those that do not want to see'

Obviously the board is full of Tory members who made money with Thatchers policies and have no thoughts for other people.

John

[Mo2013]

... Exactly Moby, those of us that can detach ourselves from the "hatred" that many show towards Baroness |Thatcher would not deny any other Prime Minister the right to a state/ceremonial funeral ..it's called being "grown up"

WOW how self righteous

Self Righteous not at all John but I am realistic

Sorry but what you are actually saying is that anyone who cannot detach themselves from their hatred towards Thatcher is not grown up.

Surely that is self righteous ?

I would say it is, or can be, immature or a desire to adopt a victim mentatlity ... but whatever it is it eats away at the person and makes them bitter.

Therefore dwelling in the past does perhaps demonstrate an inability or unwillingness to grow up and face reality .... thirty years on !!

A lot of people cannot forgive and forget how Margaret Thatcher's policies affected them. They were victims of Margaret Thatcher's policies - they didn't imagine their hardship and worry and they lived the reality. Some people cannot, and will not, move on, and only they know the reasons why they refuse to do so. I know people like that who are determined never to let something go, demonstrating an inability or unwillingness to grow up. I am not proud of being British. We are a piddling little island which has delusions of being more important than it is. Hanging on to the USA's coat tails, the country is in a mess, how can anyone be proud of that? Yesterday's pomp and ceremony is so far removed from the lives of the disadvantaged and the cost of it to the taxpayer is an obscenity when people struggle. On my local news earlier this week there was a woman, in tears, because of a cut by the government in the money she had been getting, £100+. She was crying, she'd applied for loads of jobs, without success. Where is the compassion? Who cares about people like her? Certainly not the Tories, they only care about - and look after - those with money. There is something wrong when the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

[Mo2013]

Chesterfield John wrote "Mo every critiscism on here is pointless.
'Theres none so blind as those that do not want to see'

Obviously the board is full of Tory members who made money with Thatchers policies and have no thoughts for other people."


You are absolutely right.

[Serendipity]

I am proud to be British and certainly do not think we are a piddling little island, there is always a back door if you want to leave.
I am sick of my taxes paying for the idle and feckless who have put nothing into this country and all they think is they are entitled to it.
I wish Mrs T was in power now they would be soon off their back sides!

[Manoverboard]

Blah, blah, blah >>>>

I would say it is, or can be, immature or a desire to adopt a victim mentatlity ... but whatever it is it eats away at the person and makes them bitter.

Therefore dwelling in the past does perhaps demonstrate an inability or unwillingness to grow up and face reality .... thirty years on !!

PTE described reality perfectly above.

Or do you mean face your version of reality?

The list that PTE produced contained his bias and belief, I accept it was to him the reality. I could produce the same list but with different conclusions and that is the reality for me.

At the end of the day the list will be the same for most people but the conclusions, read impact, will depend on the cards they were dealt as a consequence of those policies ... and then what they did, or didn't, do to help themselves after that.

[Mo2013]

I am proud to be British and certainly do not think we are a piddling little island, there is always a back door if you want to leave.
I am sick of my taxes paying for the idle and feckless who have put nothing into this country and all they think is they are entitled to it.
I wish Mrs T was in power now they would be soon off their back sides!

You choose to believe what suits you - not everyone in need is idle and feckless !!!! They are victims of circumstance and are very likely trying to damndest to improve the situation they find themselves in. If you don't like the way your taxes are being spent, then there is always a back door if you want to leave......

[Mo2013]

Manoverboard wrote "Blah, blah, blah >>>>"

How rude - and how partisan. It's OK for some to spout ad nauseam, blah blah blah but not others ? If you cannot engage in a reasonable debate without resorting to childish retorts, then perhaps you should not bother?

[Mo2013]

I am proud to be British and certainly do not think we are a piddling little island, there is always a back door if you want to leave.
I am sick of my taxes paying for the idle and feckless who have put nothing into this country and all they think is they are entitled to it.
I wish Mrs T was in power now they would be soon off their back sides!

You have a jaundiced and blinkered view. If these people you demonise have worked all their lives - and paid their taxes - but lose their job - then they are entitled to whatever benefits they can get! Companies have cut jobs so that they can make even more profits, whilst making the remaining workers do another's job as well as their own, for no more money. Consequently there aren't as many jobs to go around. So are the fat cats taking responsibility for not providing jobs for people in the country?

[Serendipity]

Dream on Mo2013, the amount of benefits being made to single mothers with several children by different fathers is a hugh drain on society, along with the drug and alcohol abusers who get benefits to buy their booze - a benefit brought in by Labour.
Good and bad on both sides.

[ChesterfieldJohn]

Dream on Mo2013, the amount of benefits being made to single mothers with several children by different fathers is a hugh drain on society, along with the drug and alcohol abusers who get benefits to buy their booze - a benefit brought in by Labour.
Good and bad on both sides.

As is the tax cut given to the rich and the tax evasion that they use.
Supported by the tories.

[Mo2013]

Dream on Mo2013, the amount of benefits being made to single mothers with several children by different fathers is a hugh drain on society, along with the drug and alcohol abusers who get benefits to buy their booze - a benefit brought in by Labour.
Good and bad on both sides.

There will always be those who abuse things - exploitative bosses who try to get away with paying people as little as possible - a decent day's pay, for a decent day's work is probably what most people want. That's why there is a minimum wage, it was needed because of greedy bosses, who Import goods as cheaply as possible instead of buying British. And so there will be those who will milk the benefits system but I am sure that will be addressed in the future. You branded everyone claiming benefits as idle and feckless and that is wrong.

[Manoverboard]

... A lot of people cannot forgive and forget how Margaret Thatcher's policies affected them. They were victims of Margaret Thatcher's policies - they didn't imagine their hardship and worry and they lived the reality. Some people cannot, and will not, move on, and only they know the reasons why they refuse to do so. I know people like that who are determined never to let something go, demonstrating an inability or unwillingness to grow up. I am not proud of being British. We are a piddling little island which has delusions of being more important than it is. Hanging on to the USA's coat tails, the country is in a mess, how can anyone be proud of that? Yesterday's pomp and ceremony is so far removed from the lives of the disadvantaged and the cost of it to the taxpayer is an obscenity when people struggle. On my local news earlier this week there was a woman, in tears, because of a cut by the government in the money she had been getting, £100+. She was crying, she'd applied for loads of jobs, without success. Where is the compassion? Who cares about people like her? Certainly not the Tories, they only care about - and look after - those with money. There is something wrong when the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Let me mention that my wife and I experienced severe hardship during the first years of our marriage due to the efforts of the millitant Trade Unions, we had to up sticks and start again from scratch .... this happened pre Thatcher and at a time when we voted for Labour. The question at the time would presumably be, should I have spent the rest of my life hating the Labour Party and Trade Unions or should I put it behind me and try to move on ?

So, yes, I do understand how they felt at the time.

I do tend to agree with you that the grandure of this funeral was a tad over the top but it is the end and the passing of an era and I doubt we will see its like again. Plans are made years in advance and are not reversed of course.

[Onelife]

Hi Mo2013

I’m sure the costs of the funeral would have been considerable less if it wasn’t for those who had threatened to disrupt this solemn occasion.

I do however have sympathy for all those who lost their jobs in the way that they did...I think Mrs Thatches distain of “all unions” overshadowed her Governments responsibilities in ensuring miners weren’t thrown into a pit with no way of getting out.

I think she did the right thing but forgot about the consequences.

Regards

Keith

[Delboy]

I am proud to be British and certainly do not think we are a piddling little island, there is always a back door if you want to leave.
I am sick of my taxes paying for the idle and feckless who have put nothing into this country and all they think is they are entitled to it.
I wish Mrs T was in power now they would be soon off their back sides!

You choose to believe what suits you - not everyone in need is idle and feckless !!!! They are victims of circumstance and are very likely trying to damndest to improve the situation they find themselves in. If you don't like the way your taxes are being spent, then there is always a back door if you want to leave......

Well you have made it clear you do not like the way your taxes are being spent, so I take it the same back door is open to you also........?

Most of those up in arms yesterday about the cost, I would hazard a guess do not pay any taxes, yet they can stand around with their pints of beer, celebrating MT's death.

All I know is that before Mrs Thatcher's premiership this country was on its knee's , with the extreme left controlling the Labour Party.

As a result the country was loosing thousands of days off work, due the unions and their strikes, the nationalised industries were totally un economical.

What Mrs Thatcher did was to drag the country off its knee's and make individuals responsible for their own actions, rather than relying on the state.

Unfortunately we still have a lot of people in this country, who are still happy for the state to keep them, and who have no intention of trying to find work.

Fortunately at last we have a government who are prepared to sort out the benefits system, so it goes to those who genuinely need it, and not those who sit on their backsides, because they think its their right.

[Serendipity]

I am proud to be British and certainly do not think we are a piddling little island, there is always a back door if you want to leave.
I am sick of my taxes paying for the idle and feckless who have put nothing into this country and all they think is they are entitled to it.
I wish Mrs T was in power now they would be soon off their back sides!

Mo2013 please show me where I have branded everyone on benefits as idle and feckless?
Please do not post untruths.
I know people who are on benefits and I do not begrudge them one penny.

[Mo2013]

... A lot of people cannot forgive and forget how Margaret Thatcher's policies affected them. They were victims of Margaret Thatcher's policies - they didn't imagine their hardship and worry and they lived the reality. Some people cannot, and will not, move on, and only they know the reasons why they refuse to do so. I know people like that who are determined never to let something go, demonstrating an inability or unwillingness to grow up. I am not proud of being British. We are a piddling little island which has delusions of being more important than it is. Hanging on to the USA's coat tails, the country is in a mess, how can anyone be proud of that? Yesterday's pomp and ceremony is so far removed from the lives of the disadvantaged and the cost of it to the taxpayer is an obscenity when people struggle. On my local news earlier this week there was a woman, in tears, because of a cut by the government in the money she had been getting, £100+. She was crying, she'd applied for loads of jobs, without success. Where is the compassion? Who cares about people like her? Certainly not the Tories, they only care about - and look after - those with money. There is something wrong when the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Let me mention that my wife and I experienced severe hardship during the first years of our marriage due to the efforts of the millitant Trade Unions, we had to up sticks and start again from scratch .... this happened pre Thatcher and at a time when we voted for Labour. The question at the time would presumably be, should I have spent the rest of my life hating the Labour Party and Trade Unions or should I put it behind me and try to move on ?

So, yes, I do understand how they felt at the time.

I do tend to agree with you that the grandure of this funeral was a tad over the top but it is the end and the passing of an era and I doubt we will see its like again. Plans are made years in advance and are not reversed of course.

Fair enough. You were able to put the experience behind you and move on but please don't insult those who were not able to.

[Mo2013]

Serendipity wrote "I am sick of my taxes paying for the idle and feckless who have put nothing into this country and all they think is they are entitled to it."

I do not tell lies and I would be obliged if you did not infer same. Your statement is a blanket statement, otherwise you perhaps should have wrote 'I am sick of my taxes paying for SOME idle and feckless. It is a fact that those who abuse the system are very few.

[Serendipity]

I do not consider people with disabilities and people who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own to be idle and feckless, so get your facts straight Mo2013. I consider the idle and feckless to be akin to the Philpotts of this world

[Manoverboard]

Manoverboard wrote "Blah, blah, blah >>>>"

How rude - and how partisan. It's OK for some to spout ad nauseam, blah blah blah but not others ? If you cannot engage in a reasonable debate without resorting to childish retorts, then perhaps you should not bother?

MO2013 ... the Blah, blah, blahs that you seek to highlight are taken from my OWN POSTING on page 1 and have been repeated endlessly in recent pages ... the purpose being to reduce the repeats that Members need to trawl through.

Please read posts and their intention more carefully before you decide to jump up and down.

Regards Manoverboard