M25 Protests

[Kendhni]

Hi Ken,

Re: post 69

I found that an interesting read and would struggle to find any chinks in the basis of what you say but as David explains good intention doesn’t necessarily produce the desired outcomes. For my part and I would suggest for many climatic awareness has been and still is a learning curve. The 21st century has brought many inventions many of which could be considered advancements, (Without petrol powered vehicles you wouldn’t now be driving your hybrid’s) but little did we know back then that most would have an environmental/climate impact. We are all more aware of the issues and most I would suggest are trying to adapt their behaviours to accommodate these issues, we move forward with better climatic safeguards in place but alas until such time that some world leaders are willing to put their bins out climate change is here to stay.

Its called 21st century living for which we are all contributors.

I'll pass on your film suggestion to our daughter.. thank you.

Not sure about learning curve ... how can we (as in 'society') still not understand something that has been heavily publicised for over 50 years?
Questioning and concerns about the detrimental impact of fossil fuels to the environment (mainly coal) can be traced back to the 1880's.

I agree with both you and David about 'good intentions' although I think many of those good intentions were only given begrudgingly and because people were forced to do them. We are long way past 'good intentions' and desperately need positive action to be taken ... but I doubt if it will, so that might only leave the next generation with taxation to deal with issues that our generation should have dealt with, but failed miserably.

[towny44]

I did promise to stay off this thread, but Ken's latest assertion that questioning about the detrimental impact of coal on the environment, began as long ago as 1880, on a global warming thread could be linked is going right over the top.
I would accept that smoke from coal was having a significant health impact on people living in inner city areas but, unles H G Wells time machine wasn't just a figment of his imagination, then I doubt that any late 19th century scientist was studying the impact of CO2 emissions on the earth's climate, or on the melting ice caps.
In addition I am still waiting to hear his views on how much extra China, India and even the USA will reduce their CO2 emissions if the UK bankrupts itself by adopting anything more than our current targets.
Extra action is needed, but the so called developing nations will have to share the burden far more, because as the developed nations reduce their CO2 emissions it will all be pointless If the developing countries massively increase theirs. I doubt there is any possibility of that unless there is a radical change in the attitude of China and Russia towards cooperation with the West to enforce targets on everyone. That is my realistic view.

[Kendhni]

I did promise to stay off this thread, but Ken's latest assertion that questioning about the detrimental impact of coal on the environment, began as long ago as 1880, on a global warming thread could be linked is going right over the top.
I would accept that smoke from coal was having a significant health impact on people living in inner city areas but, unles H G Wells time machine wasn't just a figment of his imagination, then I doubt that any late 19th century scientist was studying the impact of CO2 emissions on the earth's climate, or on the melting ice caps.

You were probably better being a man of your word, because you are obviously way out of your depth.
As a starter you could read this paper. The maths is probably beyond you (I found some of it confusing) but it is fully explained in the text. It is from 1896 that builds on an earlier paper and is credited as being the first attempt at quantifying the impact of CO2 on what we now call the greenhouse effect. It merely hints at a possible connection with fossil fuels but does not fully explore that until a later paper (1898?) by the same author.
https://www.rsc.org/images/Arrhenius189 ... 173546.pdf

There are also some great articles from the first couple of decades of the 20th century if you take the time to look. As a teaser, here is a very short story from 1912: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newsp ... 814.2.56.5
I have anecdotally heard of a paper from the 18th century that references industrial pollution (but have never found it).

I will address rest of your post after your apology.

[towny44]

My total response is, did any of these 18th and 19th century papers suggest that CO2 emissions could result in climate change, or even the warming of the seas, and melting ice caps and glaciers, or suggest that it could lead to severe weather events, ie global warming. But no apology will ever pass my lips for pointing out the many falsehoods you spout, which I know you will deny, but my view is that you manipulate anything and everything to try and foist your views onto the good people of this forum.

[Kendhni]

Please stop digging, I really don't enjoy making you look foolish again (and I see you have reverted to form when you know you have been proven wrong, throw your toys about and resort to ad hominems - my opinion of those that need to use ad hominems is perfectly covered by the eminent psychologist, Roszenweig).

Ignoring the sarcasm and bafflegab, let us go back to what you actually said and what I responded to

I doubt that any late 19th century scientist was studying the impact of CO2 emissions on the earth's climate, or on the melting ice caps.

However, even with your attempt to move the goalposts, and to prove that, as usual you are the one that is in the habit of making things up, I don't need to answer your questions ... the answer is in the article I posted, which maybe you should have at least perused before responding. Of course if you can prove that the scientific journal that published the article made it up rather than you, then I am all ears.

I still await your apology so that I can answer rest of your post

[Stephen]

As I mentioned in #37

Climate change: Should green campaigners put more pressure on China to slash emissions? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58584976

[Kendhni]

As I mentioned in #37

Climate change: Should green campaigners put more pressure on China to slash emissions? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58584976

Yes, and America, but there are also other countries that have much higher emissions per capita (think of those countries that inconveniently have our oil under their sand).

[Stephen]

But are they chucking out huge amounts of emissions Ken.

[Kendhni]

But are they chucking out huge amounts of emissions Ken.

Depends on how you count it. The countries with the highest emissions are the usual suspects, but that doesn't necessarily tell the whole story because comparing the likes of China to a small island has little meaning. If you take emissions per capita then countries like India are actually using less than their "fair share" and China moves down the list significantly while some smaller countries move up the list (which isn't really fair representation either ... but gives an interesting list).

This site allows you to sort by total or by capita https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emiss ... by-country (sorry it is a bit out of date but was the first I came across). Naturally for quick wins you have to go after the biggest producers, but in the interests of fairness you have to consider population.

[barney]

But are they chucking out huge amounts of emissions Ken.

Don’t encourage him Stephen

[Ray B]

I am sure that all these mega forest fires don't help. Locked up carbon being released and years before effective recovery.

[Kendhni]

I am sure that all these mega forest fires don't help. Locked up carbon being released and years before effective recovery.

Indeed, double disaster for the reasons you state.
In one report I heard someone say "Every continent is alight at the minute"

[Kendhni]

My irony alert radar has just gone off?
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/co2-shortage- ... 00378.html

[towny44]

If CO2 is a by, or co-product from fertiliser manufacture, I wonder why it was never considered viable to recover it from coal or oil fired power stations. We only ever heard about burying it in disused oil wells, no mention of gaseous recovery for sale.

[Stephen]

My irony alert radar has just gone off?
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/co2-shortage- ... 00378.html

Christmas possibly cancelled.

[Kendhni]

My irony alert radar has just gone off?
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/co2-shortage- ... 00378.html

Christmas possibly cancelled.

Turkey sabotage ?

[Mervyn and Trish]

And a toy shortage too.

We always seem to get these stories about now. And they usually seem to come to nothing. Retailers trying to whip up early panic buying???

[Gill W]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/o ... uxbndlbing

This CO2 shortage may have more important effects than cancelling Christmas

[Ray B]

Seems a reasonable request, climate protesters ask the authorities to lower the speed limit on the M25 so to hold their protests more safely. Any thing else we can help them with, chairs maybe.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Or nice comfy cells?

[Kendhni]

Seems a reasonable request, climate protesters ask the authorities to lower the speed limit on the M25 so to hold their protests more safely. Any thing else we can help them with, chairs maybe.

While there are good arguments for cutting speed limits, I don't consider this to be it. As I have said a couple of times now they have made their point, they have grabbed their headlines, they now need to escalate this and keep momentum going through more traditional means. At least until they see if the government is willing to (or even can) do something about it.

[screwy]

Just run em over,most look like their ready for the boneyard anyway.

Only joking,hose them down with liquid manure.

[Kendhni]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/o ... uxbndlbing

This CO2 shortage may have more important effects than cancelling Christmas

It always amazes me how interconnected everything is and how it is impossible to look at anything in isolation.
As I said to a colleague in work the other day who was using the word 'simply' to refer to other peoples work ... "saying something is simple or can be rectified simply generally means you don't understand the problem'.

[Quizzical Bob]

While there are good arguments for cutting speed limits, I don't consider this to be it. As I have said a couple of times now they have made their point, they have grabbed their headlines, they now need to escalate this and keep momentum going through more traditional means. At least until they see if the government is willing to (or even can) do something about it.

The government can’t give in to such blackmail. If they did then every petty cause celebre would be holding marches down the M25. There are democratic methods for getting changes made and this is as remote from them as you could get.

[Ray B]

Just run em over,most look like their ready for the boneyard anyway.

Only joking,hose them down with liquid manure.

No Screwy, with the production of fertilizer effected by high gas prices it would be a gross waste of the valuable asset.
Best go with your first idea.