Football

[Mo2013]

Yes, it is rather yawn-making to read the same old drivel from ABUs. Interesting reading from EPLTalk:

"Which Premier League club is the biggest spender in the last decade? You may be surprised by the results. According to a recent survey by Deloitte, Premier League clubs have spent more than £4.4bn on players since the transfer window was introduced 10 years ago. Here are the top 20 spenders in the Premier League since the transfer window debuted in 2003, including the number of trophies each club has won:

Chelsea, £673 million — 12 trophies — 3 Premier League titles (2o05, 2006, 2010), 1 Champions League (2012), 4 FA Cups (2007, 2009, 2010, 2012), 2 League Cups (2005, 2007) and 2 Community Shields (2005, 2009).
Manchester City, £572 million — 3 trophies — 1 Premier League title (2012), 1 FA Cup (2011) and 1 Community Shield (2012).
Liverpool, £414 million — 6 trophies — 1 Champions League (2005), 1 UEFA Super Cup (2005), 1 FA Cup (2006), 2 League Cups (2003, 2012) and 1 Community Shield (2006).
Manchester United, £352 million — 16 trophies — 5 Premier League titles (2003, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011), 1 Champions League (2008), 1 FA Cup (2004), 3 League Cups (2006, 2009, 2010), 5 Community Shields (2003, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011) and 1 FIFA Club World Cup (2008).
Tottenham Hotspur, £350 million — 1 trophy — 1 League Cup (2008).
Arsenal, £214 million — 4 trophies — 1 Premier League title (2004), 2 FA Cups (2003, 2005) and 1 Community Shield (2004).
Aston Villa, £201 million — 0 trophies
Sunderland, £187 million — 0 trophies
Newcastle United, £174 million — 1 trophy — 1 Intertoto Cup (2006).
Everton, £129 million — 0 trophies
West Ham United, £123 million — 0 trophies
Wigan Athletic, £110 million — 0 trophies
Fulham, £107 million — 0 trophies
Portsmouth, £100 million — 1 trophy — 1 FA Cup (2008).
Birmingham City, £92 million — 1 trophy — 1 League Cup (2011).
Blackburn Rovers, £87 million — 0 trophies
Stoke City, £84 million — 0 trophies
Bolton Wanderers, £76 million — 0 trophies
Middlesbrough, £71 million — 1 trophies — 1 League Cup (2004).
West Bromwich Albion, £64 million — 0 trophies

Some of the interesting points that can be gleaned from the above data:

Manchester United is certainly the model of success, having spent less than many of its closest rivals but having garnered far more trophies, Manchester City’s spending is immense when you consider that most of it was conducted in the past five years,
Liverpool has spent almost four times as much as neighbors Everton,
In the North London derby, Arsenal has spent £136 million less than Tottenham Hotspur but have won 3 more trophies,
Wigan often is perceived as a thrifty small town club, but as you can see from the above data, the club has spent more than a few of its rivals."

Yes, Man United have achieved what they have, in spite of servicing the Glazers' debt.

[Dark Knight]

an obscene amount of money for anyone to spend on a game
there should be a maximum wage, maximum transfer fee and a maximum spend per season
to waste this amount of money, to finance a load of overpaid thugs kicking a ball is beyond contempt and any club in debt at the end of the season should be demoted

pathetic doesn't even start to cover this

[paultheeagle]

Mo2013

That table that you posted just about says it all about the Premier League.....I ain't United bashing, they ain't worth it but I am very anti Premier League.....

And you United fans should be very grateful to the Palace....without us Sir Alex would have been booted out of Old Trafford 23 years ago.

[barney]

MO2013 I'm certainly not anti United, I'm anti the whole sick circus

I'd love to see a European Super League then all the alledged 'rich' clubs could all bugger off and play together and leave real football to the real fans.

Just for info, the average ticket price in the Bundasleague is £10.98

The way the Premier league carries on actually disgusts me.
Rejoice ! They have just agreed to limit losses for any club to £50million a year ???????????

And they way it is presented to the gullible masses as the best league in the world.

And they way the Premier league has leeched finance away from lower league clubs with not a thought for the future of the game.

Chester City went bust with debts of £200k
Yep, one weeks wages for Rooney or Van Persie

The whole thing is morally corrupt.

There, I've let off steam

[paultheeagle]

With you all the way barney.

I hope Liverpool appeal Suarez's ten match ban....That way the FA can then increase it.

[barney]

As an appendix to my previous rant Paul

Gills have just won League two

Have a guess at the 'prize' money for winning the league?

26k - yep - twenty six thousand pounds

Since the formation of the Premier League, all football league clubs have suffered due to the mis-direction of funds

Next seasons relegated teams will get £60 million

How can that be right ?

[Mo2013]

I agree about the Premiership. I deplore the monies involved and the salaries of the players. It is obscene. No argument from me there. When the Green and Gold campaign took over at Old Trafford many season ticket holders left and started supporting FC United in protest at the Glazers. (Green and gold were the colours of Newton Heath (later known as Manchester United). If everyone had walked in protest, there might have been a different scenario, but there are so many people who would take their place in the blink of an eye. So any personal protest would be rather like farting against thunder. There is too much money in football and I hate the way the tv people dictate what day the match will be played - and the kick-off time. I don't like the money men but if I want to watch my team, then I have to accept that this is way it is. A lot of people don't like the way things have evolved but really, they do not have any real power to change it back. The genie is out of the bottle. By the way, just had a note from the Club telling me that season ticket prices have been frozen for the next season.

It has been shown that money does not equal success - and having a team full of 'class' players does not bring success either. Blame those greedy players who leave clubs like Leeds for example because they want to feather their nest, and clubs want the best players to ensure success, but as I've said, it doesn't always work that way.

[Mo2013]

As an appendix to my previous rant Paul

Gills have just won League two

Have a guess at the 'prize' money for winning the league?

26k - yep - twenty six thousand pounds

Since the formation of the Premier League, all football league clubs have suffered due to the mis-direction of funds

Next seasons relegated teams will get £60 million

How can that be right ?

I know what you are saying Barney, and I do think we need to nurture and bring on raw talent in this country, not just footballers but budding tennis players, swimmers and athletes etc. The wealth ought to be shared out - but hey, life is like that, so much of the world's wealth is in the hands of only a few, and guess what? they don't wanna share !

[Manoverboard]

There is no point at all beefing about the money that is being paid to players and the Clubs ... it's all the fault of those of you who signed up with SKY.

ps ... I may consider doing the same if Watford are promoted ... that's life as we live it.

[Dark Knight]

I knew it would be my fault !!!
I don't have the sports package?
it is not a sport and has not been since they abolished the maximum wage and paid 1 million for Trevor Francis, if you want to apportion blame, Start with Jimmy Hill

[Manoverboard]

Oh yeah ... that Jimmy Hill has a lot to answer for ... consider all those people that grew beards and extra long chins or hated Fulham because of him

[Dark Knight]

he was also the leading campaigner for abolishing the maximum wage
and now look at it, 200 grand a week for players who without football would be in jail or dead

[oldbluefox]

The abolishing of the maximum wage coupled with the Bosman ruling were a disaster for smaller clubs who relied upon transfer fees to keep solvent. Sadly they now pick up the crumbs from under the Premier League table. £26K for winning the league title is a joke.

[Mo2013]

In today's Daily Mail:

"Fifty years ago this month, football took a momentous decision. It divided the nation, grabbed the headlines from Fidel Castro's Cuban revolution and, in hindsight, presaged the era of today's Premier League millionaires. But while some see the abolition of football's maximum wage, which had capped players' pay at £20 a week, as a defining moment in the game's history, others view January 18, 1961, as the day football - and, more importantly, footballers - began to lose touch with reality. Chris Coleman started his career as an apprentice at Manchester City in the mid-Eighties before signing his first professional contract at Swansea City on £100 a week. He went on to manage Premier League millionaires at Fulham and he insists football has paid a high price for the money now in the players' pockets.

'There is a staggering gap between what Premier League players earn and what the average person gets,' he said. 'And the relationship between players and the public really isn't that great any more. 'The fans aren't stupid and they see too many average millionaires. They'll forgive players the money if they really earn it but too many of them don't. Some can't even be bothered to take their headphones off and give the fans a smile when they're getting off the team coach. 'It's a different universe to even 25 years ago. Our captain at Swansea City, Mick McCarthy, used to drive a VW Beetle into training. Nowadays it's all Ferraris and Porsches. 'And there is nothing worse for a fan than to see a player driving a £100,000 car when, based on his performance, he should be driving a Reliant Robin.'

The abolition of the maximum wage followed the threat of strike action by the players' union, the Professional Footballers' Association. The union was led by Jimmy Hill, at the time a player with Fulham. Brian Clough and Bobby Robson, then England internationals rather than the world-famous managers they became, backed the strike action, Clough succinctly putting the case: 'I would expect the right to negotiate my contract the same as any person in any profession.'

Opponents included Manchester United manager Matt Busby and Stoke City chairman Albert Henshall, who said: 'The players' demands are unreasonable. To even expect £30 a week, a rise of 50 per cent, is unheard of.' The PFA's victory meant nothing could ever be the same again. While Bill Shankly built a Liverpool team in 1960 on a total wage bill of £517 a week, Manchester City have committed £500million to salaries in their bid for Premier League glory.

Gordon Taylor, now chairman of the PFA, was a young apprentice with Bolton Wanderers as the furore over the maximum wage hit football. Taylor, who says scrapping the maximum wage 'changed the history of football', recalls the fateful meeting in December 1960 when players in the north of the country agreed to strike by 254 votes to six. 'It turned on a speech by the Bolton rep, Tommy Banks,' said Taylor. 'Someone said it was unfair to want more than £20 a week when miners earned less. 'Tommy, who had worked at the coalface himself, said he admired people in the mining community but it didn't mean they could cope with marking Stanley Matthews on a Saturday afternoon.' That, says Taylor, made the point that footballers should have the right to capitalise on their special ability.

'When the hands went up to vote, the decision was almost unanimous,' he said. 'Roger Hunt told me later that Liverpool had allowed their players to attend the meeting only if they voted against the strike. But once they saw what was happening, they stuck their hands up with everyone else.' The wages spiral did not immediately follow the abolition of the maximum wage. Although Fulham's showbiz chairman, Tommy Trinder, saw the publicity value in making his England midfielder, Johnny Haynes, the first £100-a-week player, other clubs, including Manchester United and Liverpool, initially stuck to strict wage ceilings.

It was only when stars such as Denis Law and Jimmy Greaves left to play in Italy for bigger salaries in the summer of 1961 that the clubs realised they were going to have to pay out for top talent. By the end of the decade, George Best was earning £1,000 a week at United but the real explosion in players' pay came about after the Premier League was founded in 1992. Liverpool's John Barnes was then the highest-paid player in the country on £10,000 a week. But a decade later, with the Bosman ruling allowing players to move at the end of their contracts, Sol Campbell joined Arsenal on £100,000 a week. The current best-paid player, Yaya Toure, of Manchester City, is believed to earn £240,000 a week, although United's Wayne Rooney is not far behind on £200,000 a week, or £10m a year. For some, such riches bring problems.

Taylor is not shy about reminding his more celebrated members of It was only when stars such as Denis Law and Jimmy Greaves left to play in Italy for bigger salaries in their responsibilities and the PFA work hard to help players who earn 'too much, too soon'. 'Coping with lifestyle is a big issue,' said Taylor. 'We work with Sporting Chance to help anyone with addiction problems because players are subject to all sorts of vulnerabilities, just like pop stars and film stars. 'We want them to have a healthy lifestyle. We realise it's not just about what players do in 90 minutes on a Saturday but how they live and behave the rest of the week as well. And it's important for the players, even those who earn a lot of money, to realise that it might not last for ever.

'Despite the feeling that top players earn too much, it would be churlish not to recognise the achievement of the PFA in ending an unjust system that allowed clubs to bank gate receipts from huge attendances without putting much of the money back, either to their players or into the infrastructure of stadiums. But even Jimmy Hill came to regret the wages explosion that followed the scrapping of the wage ceiling.
'It was an injustice,' he recalled years later. 'There was no reason for it. But it has gone too far the other way now, with players in 90 per cent of clubs being paid far more than their clubs can afford. That's just as ridiculous as having a maximum wage.' According to Anfield legend Ian Callaghan, who began his long Liverpool career in the year before the maximum wage was abolished, the move had the welcome sideeffect of helping England to their World Cup triumph in 1966.

Callaghan, a member of Alf Ramsey's illustrious squad who played in the group stages before losing his place to Alan Ball, said: 'Our success was due to a great team spirit. We all played in the First Division and knew each other very well. 'I'm sure that if some of that squad had been playing abroad in 1966, which might have been the case if the maximum wage had not been scrapped five years earlier, it would have upset the balance.' Callaghan, 68, is still a regular at Anfield, where he looks after corporate guests on match days. He admits that the lifestyle of the modern player is unrecognisable compared with his time at the club. 'I stayed with Liverpool for 14 years and never once asked for a rise,' he said. 'The manager would come to you if he was going to give you more money. 'When I started I lived at home with my parents. I only opened a bank account when a team-mate, Alan A'Court, took me there to show me the ropes. 'None of us had agents. The first time we came across one was when Kevin Keegan joined. But even then the manager was all-powerful - we didn't see Kevin's agent too often if Bill Shankly was about. Shanks didn't want Kevin spending all his time opening shops.'

For some, the wheel has turned full circle and the recent financial crisis, which has seen Portsmouth and Leeds almost go to the wall, has led to new calls for a salary cap. Not surprisingly, Taylor is opposed to the idea. 'I hope the 50th anniversary of the end of the maximum wage will remind people of an important principle,' he said. 'Footballers, like any profession, should not have to earn only what an employer wants to pay them.' "

I expect clubs would still be paying their footballers a pittance if they could - and maybe in the grand scheme of things they don't deserve that much for kicking a ball about - but just like any job a footballer deserves a minimum wage, but football has clearly gone too far - and unfortunately, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Any club who has the wherewithal to buy a class player or players who will help them to win trophies (and secure the monies from winning those trophies) is going to do just that and pay the footballer accordingly.

[Manoverboard]

he was also the leading campaigner for abolishing the maximum wage
and now look at it, 200 grand a week for players who without football would be in jail or dead

Indeed so, I was there at the time and it was a total farce that players like Johnny Haynes and Jimmy Greaves etc could expect to earn only £20 per week ... £100 at that time seemed high to most people but it seems justifiable and a big incentive to others learning their trade.

These days it is not justifiable ... and I still blame SKY and the FA as it could have been avoided if the flow of money had been shared out better across the lower leagues and a cap set on Prem player receipts, the chosen few could still earn their mega bucks through shirt sales and Rooney selling suitably engraved designer slippers and lapel pins ...

[Dark Knight]

Mobymod
It doesn't matter who you blame, the premiership, is a disgrace and should be reigned in

[Mo2013]

I would have thought that those who speak longingly about Margaret Thatcher would applaud those football clubs who are enterprising, who seek and secure investors; I would have thought that they would admire those clubs who steal a march on their competitors, and get in front of the pack, in order to reap the rewards of winning competitions and coming out on top. Like any business, they 'headhunt' and hire the brightest stars but they have to pay for them of course. However, spending lots of money does not always equal success, but like it or not, it's a business. That's why the players are so protected, because they are assets. It's no good anyone moaning about the Premiership because there is nothing anyone can do, other than vote with their feet and not go to Premiership games and not renew their Premiership team season tickets. I am probably the only person on this forum who is a Premiership team season ticket holder. To expect and hope that all season ticket holders rescind their ticket for a principle isn't going to happen. All they care about is that their team is in the top flight (and any team can aspire to those heights). Only caring about oneself surely is the principle that was espoused so much by Margaret Thatcher?

[Not so ancient mariner]

Mo2013 quoted from the Daily Mail:

"There is a staggering gap between what Premier League players earn and what the average person gets"

Surely that should read "There is a staggering gap between what Premier League players get and what the average person earns"

[gfwgfw]

Very sadly

I am priced out of attending Prem football

[Not so ancient mariner]

Likewise. The last match I went to cost me 2/6d

[RB1961]

I enjoy reading this thread and enjoy the banter between the regular posters and there ups and downs so far this season.

Can we get back on track and keep it a football thread.

Thanks

RB

Spot on

[barney]

Back on the fooball theme (how did Thatcher get into this?)

A very interesting article on radio four this morning about the German Bundasliga

It is illegal for any individual or company to own more than 49% of any club.
51% is retained by a fans consortium so ultimately, the fans always have the final say on how the club is goverened.

Even without the huge sums of money that the Premier league get from Sky, 80% of German clubs run at a profit.
They have safe standing areas for those who want it and the average ticket price is just over £10.

Bayern Munich even have some Season Tickets at £100

Unfortunately, with the Premier League, the genie cannot be put back in the bottle and will ultimately crash & die.

[Dark Knight]

it is a sad state when some of the larger clubs are just toys or used to offset huge debts, rather than run a football club.
the premiership is a huge clearing bank for rich people to factor debts and milk as cash cows
ultimatley they will find a better scam and leave taking all their money with them, then the inevitable crash will happen leaving many clubs bankrupt

[Mo2013]

Hi Barney. Thatcher came into it because football has become a business and I was puzzled as to how members who glorify her and her policies find it abhorrent and unacceptable that a football club could - shock horror - make money and pay silly wages! This apparent discrepancy in standards was something I didn't understand.

Regarding the Premiership, its clubs and players and the monies involved - people can moan and rant all they like, but it isn't going to change a thing.

[Mo2013]

Liverpool goalkeeper Pepe Reina has stated that the ban imposed on team mate Suarez is 'absurd and unfair', and manager Brendan Rodgers has claimed 'the FA have punished the man rather than the offence'. I wonder what they would say had it been an opposing player who bit one of their own? I recently read the comment that 'Liverpool FC are outraged at everything but ashamed of nothing'. I have to agree.