Current Affairs

[Mervyn and Trish]

I wonder if Screaming Lord Sutch is still available?

[Gill W]

I'm sorry you don't like that, but I have to be honest.

I'm not bothered, Gill. You're the one arguing.
My point, which you seem to have missed, was that the media did not report the fact that £19bn was spent. To all intents and purposes it appeared the BofE had spent £65bn which was clearly untrue.

Where did you get the figure of 19bn, if not from the media?

Looking back, the earlier reports said they were prepared to spend £65bn

That was correct at the time

[barney]

I personally would never consider voting for the labour party while Raynor, Thornbury and Streeting have any influence over it. Neither will any other sensible person if they have the best interests of our country at heart.

Here’s hoping Barney isn’t reading this

I am
My son was at Selwyn College Cambridge the same time as Wes Streeting and knew him in passing.
I think he seems ok

[Gill W]

Gill re #17343, this forum relies on free speech. You comment as you wish, I will comment as I wish.

You can construe my silence on some issues as you wish but it doesn't make your interpretation correct. You can construe my calling Sir K Sir Hindsight as attacks. Or maybe it's because I'm frustrated that until recently he's told me nothing about himself other than "I'm not Boris " and "I wouldn't have done that". If he wants my vote he has to tell me clearly what I'm voting for, not what I'm not voting for. As an attack it's pretty mild compared to some of the things you and others have said about the Tories

Maybe my flippancy about cakes is because even when that was a live issue I thought there were bigger ones and was fed up with the constant banging on about it.

As for the illegal Iraq War it is still affecting us today. It has fuelled terrorism that is ongoing and even Putin has used it as a comparison to justify his own behaviour. So it's far from a distant memory for me.

As for who to vote for next. You're wrong that I am anti anyone. I could point out that as a proclaimed floating voter you seem pretty consistently anti-Tory! But you are spot on that I haven't a clue who to vote for at the moment. But I too have voted for all three major parties in the past.

I was happy with the Tories for the first part of the last decade, until Cameron lit the blue touch paper and ran off when it exploded.

I

[Onelife]

I personally would never consider voting for the labour party while Raynor, Thornbury and Streeting have any influence over it. Neither will any other sensible person if they have the best interests of our country at heart.

Here’s hoping Barney isn’t reading this

I am
My son was at Selwyn College Cambridge the same time as Wes Streeting and knew him in passing.
I think he seems ok

Oh! sh*t, I thought you were on holiday…Squeak! Squeak!

[Mervyn and Trish]

I think Brexit put the cat among the pigeons across party lines. Both major parties fuelled the anti EU fire by ignoring voters concerns and created the vacuum into which UKIP entered. If the parties had seen the writing on the wall they could have got some reforms to make the EU more acceptable and the referendum would never had happened. As it was Cameron's approach was pretty much "don't worry chaps they'll never vote to leave" and the concessions he did get were pathetic.

I agree Barney that those who continued to try to derail Brexit were anti dennicratic and have a lot to answer for. But hopefully it's now history with both main parties committed to making it work. So the next GE should be fought on other issues.

[oldbluefox]

Where did you get the figure of 19bn, if not from the media?

It was in an interview with an economist this morning.
However I have just found this...........
"The Bank’s early intervention was generally effective, with far lower levels of gilts being purchased than provided for – around £5bn out of a facility of up to £65bn. Recent days have, however, shown that market confidence remains low".
Any ideas why this was not more widely reported? The £65bn was.

https://www.plsa.co.uk/press-centre/new ... volatility

[barney]

Gill re #17343, this forum relies on free speech. You comment as you wish, I will comment as I wish.

You can construe my silence on some issues as you wish but it doesn't make your interpretation correct. You can construe my calling Sir K Sir Hindsight as attacks. Or maybe it's because I'm frustrated that until recently he's told me nothing about himself other than "I'm not Boris " and "I wouldn't have done that". If he wants my vote he has to tell me clearly what I'm voting for, not what I'm not voting for. As an attack it's pretty mild compared to some of the things you and others have said about the Tories

Maybe my flippancy about cakes is because even when that was a live issue I thought there were bigger ones and was fed up with the constant banging on about it.

As for the illegal Iraq War it is still affecting us today. It has fuelled terrorism that is ongoing and even Putin has used it as a comparison to justify his own behaviour. So it's far from a distant memory for me.

As for who to vote for next. You're wrong that I am anti anyone. I could point out that as a proclaimed floating voter you seem pretty consistently anti-Tory! But you are spot on that I haven't a clue who to vote for at the moment. But I too have voted for all three major parties in the past.

I was happy with the Tories for the first part of the last decade, until Cameron lit the blue touch paper and ran off when it exploded.

I

I rest my case.
Cameron won victory because he promised the electorate a vote on the Eu.
Blair did the same previously but then didn’t carry it through.
Cameron campaigned harder than anyone to remain but the majority thought differently.
All Cameron did was to keep his word.

[Kendhni]

Can’t argue with that Merv,but I’m sure some will.!

No need to argue, but knowing the full picture rather than one person's recollection is better.
http://www.opalliance.org.uk/archive/decline.htm
A smorgasbord of characters and events ... Lawson did a lot more damage than Brown, but life expectancy was probably the final nail in the coffin for many final salary pensions.

I know it doesn't suit your narrative but that itself is only one version of the story and even that shows the real decline began in 1997. Before that virtually every FTSE 100 company had a final salary pension scheme and 90% of private sector workers were in one. That had plummeted by 2010 and now virtually none do. Yes there have been other contributions, but the majority of informed sources say Gordon Brown's raid was a major factor. More significantly it was a cumulative one that has had impact way after he left office. And importantly in the last week it was his raid that led fund managers to gamble by leveraging over and over their gilt holdings, which has now caused the panic when they have had to sell them off at falling prices to meet cash demands.

The article is actually one of the most informed and unbiased I have read, which is why I posted it rather than relying on the usual rubbish of talking about Brown raiding pensions. If you have a better informed analysis, please present it .

As I said in a post several weeks back when you ask people what Brown did the vast majority will incorrectly talk about allowing companies to lift out of pensions (not the case from any chancellor) ... or allowing companies to take a payment holiday, which was Lawson not Brown. The few that know Brown cut tax relief on dividend payments, seem to forget that the chancellor that started that was Lamont, and his stated direction at the time was to cut tax relief to zero ... so that 'raid on pensions' would have been done by Lamont anyway, if the conservatives had been in power .

The second point that is made is that the impact of the cut that Brown made was less than 0.5% ... well within the 'noise' of fees and charges of the time (which were significantly more than today) ... compared to 30% attributed to Lawson.. Not forgetting that Brown at the same time also introduced a tax cut to allow companies to make up any shortfall (which most failed to do) ... so arguably it was the employers that failed to contribute.

I do not blame Gordon Brown entirely. As I explained to Gill I like to take a wider view. And equally you cannot entirely blame Tory incompetence. A number of factors are to blame for the pension crisis this week, yes including us having the nerve to get older,

My position has always been that it has been a whole sequence of events carried out by multiple chancellors, including an ageing population that made final salary schemes unsustainable ... they always were and always will be little more than a posh ponzi scheme. That is why I correct those who lay the blame at the feet of a single individual ... irrespective of party.

but Gordon Brown is certainly as big villain in this story as poor old Kwasi. He left the ticking time bomb for Kwasi to trip over.

As did Lawson(C) (not saying he was the first but he is the first I can remember raising flags about final salary schemes), Major(C), Lamont(C), Clark(C), Darling(L), Osborne(C), Hammond(C), Javid(C), Sunak(C) ... despite understanding the problem from the 1980's no chancellor has properly addressed un(der)funded public sector final salary schemes ... which is the real ticking time bomb yet to go off.

The ground work for discontinuation of final salary pensions was carried out in the 1980's, built upon by both main parties in the 1990's, with most of the results of that preliminary work surfacing in the noughties.

[oldbluefox]

Cameron won victory because he promised the electorate a vote on the Eu.
Blair did the same previously but then didn’t carry it through.
Cameron campaigned harder than anyone to remain but the majority thought differently.
All Cameron did was to keep his word.

Cameron was railroaded into holding an election by the continuing influence of UKIP who were gaining ground around the country. Cameron promised a vote which many others had promised but then reneged.
Even then I believe he was convinced the British people would vote to remain. The result precipitated his early resignation.

[towny44]

Strange Barney but I know very few Tory voters who were so pro the EU that they will never vote Tory again. My son voted to remain, mainly because he worked for a German chemical co, but he is fairly happy with the result, still a tory voter. In fact the vast majority of voterrs IMO, regardless of their political persuasion would have been content with whichever way the vote went. Only the radical wings of remain and leave were the ones who would never accept a vote against their choice, and it seems that the radical remainers were certainly the most upset as they noisily threw their many toys out of their prams.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Cameron kept his word in carrying out the referendum. Where he broke it was that he said he'd stay on and implement the result whichever way it went. Instead he rode off into the sunset and left Theresa May and the Boris to pick up the pieces. If he'd stayed maybe we wouldn't have suffered the waves of instability we've had since.

I didn't rate his campaign at all. Very much Project Fear. Banged on about the disasters that would befall leaving, many of which didn't happen, without selling the advantages of staying. My starting point was I wanted to leave but was very happy to be talked round. In fact the Stay campaign cemented my resolve to leave much more than the Leave campaign did.

I think he should have stayed on and gone back to the EU to say "I'm sorry I misjudged it. Have you got anything else to offer that might persuade them to change their minds if I give them the chance". The EU are famous for referendum re-runs. They didn't want us to go and I think there were more concessions to be had if they thought we might rethink.

[towny44]

Cameron kept his word in carrying out the referendum. Where he broke it was that he said he'd stay on and implement the result whichever way it went. Instead he rode off into the sunset and left Theresa May and the Boris to pick up the pieces. If he'd stayed maybe we wouldn't have suffered the waves of instability we've had since.

I didn't rate his campaign at all. Very much Project Fear. Banged on about the disasters that would befall leaving, many of which didn't happen, without selling the advantages of staying. My starting point was I wanted to leave but was very happy to be talked round. In fact the Stay campaign cemented my resolve to leave much more than the Leave campaign did.

I think he should have stayed on and gone back to the EU to say "I'm sorry I misjudged it. Have you got anything else to offer that might persuade them to change their minds if I give them the chance". The EU are famous for referendum re-runs. They didn't want us to go and I think there were more concessions to be had if they thought we might rethink.

I wonder if you are right there Merv? Maybe Cameron realised that there was nothing else he could squeeze out of the EU, which is why he left.

[oldbluefox]

He went on a tour of the EU hoping to get concessions which would seal his Remain agenda and came back empty handed.

[Kendhni]

Cameron kept his word in carrying out the referendum. Where he broke it was that he said he'd stay on and implement the result whichever way it went. Instead he rode off into the sunset and left Theresa May and the Boris to pick up the pieces. If he'd stayed maybe we wouldn't have suffered the waves of instability we've had since.

There was no way Cameron could have stayed on ... we saw the abuse May took, because she had not been a brexiteer ... and that lady did more to deliver brexit than anyone else in this country.

Many of those 'waves' were down to the brexit camps failure to bring remainers on the journey with them. The onus is on those who want change to convince the others. On my part I only ever had three simple questions:
- what are the verifiable tangible benefits of brexit ... still to be answered
- how will the success or failure of brexit be measured ... still to be answered**
- how much is brexit going to cost ... sadly we can only guess because the government is keeping that data close to its chest (current estimates that I have seen put it at somewhere between £500bn and £800bn and growing)

** Rees-Mogg was asked this question quite recently (in his role as Brexit minister) and his response was something along the lines that keeping such information would not be helpful ... and this was the person in charge??? An admission of incompetence and planning to fail if there ever was one.

I didn't rate his campaign at all. Very much Project Fear.

While I agree, it has proved a lot more accurate than the 'brexit contract with the people' which, so far, has failed to fully deliver on a single one of its promises ... on the other hand many points labelled as project fear have, unfortunately, come true.

I think he should have stayed on and gone back to the EU to say "I'm sorry I misjudged it. Have you got anything else to offer that might persuade them to change their minds if I give them the chance".

While that would have been nice, he had had his opportunity and got quite a few concessions from the EU ... however even before his plane landed back in the UK our media was spinning it as a failure (those concessions he did get never really got a fair hearing ... would it have made a difference? possibly not, by that point Farage was in control).

The EU are famous for referendum re-runs. They didn't want us to go and I think there were more concessions to be had if they thought we might rethink.

First sentence is an equivocation ... otherwise you could equally argue that it took over 30 votes in the HoC and 8 in the HoL before we got the right answer. They may not have wanted us to go, but equally they made no attempt to stop us (every blocker was of our own making) whereas they had offered concessions to other countries (resulting in referendum reruns). Both May and Johnson were in continuous negotiations with the EU and if there had been any other concessions to be had they would have got them.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Well there we are. That's Brexit re-run. But as I said earlier neither major party is in the mood to change it. So let's get over it and work to capitalise on it.

[david63]

Where he broke it was that he said he'd stay on and implement the result whichever way it went. Instead he rode off into the sunset

Not sure that is 100% correct. He did say before the referendum that he would not be leader at the next General Election so whichever way the vote went he would have also gone to pave the way for a new leader in readiness for the next GE.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Not my recollection but at my age I can't find my slippers in the morning

[Onelife]

Ken wrote:

There was no way Cameron could have stayed on ... we saw the abuse May took, because she had not been a brexiteer ... and that lady did more to deliver brexit than anyone else in this country.

Without doubt the most accurate comment of the day

[Mervyn and Trish]

Are you still in love?

[Kendhni]

Not sure that is 100% correct. He did say before the referendum that he would not be leader at the next General Election so whichever way the vote went he would have also gone to pave the way for a new leader in readiness for the next GE.

You are right .. I had forgotten about that.

[Onelife]

Are you still in love?

I’m missing her terribly ….a fine lady, and one that could have been the best PM of our time had it not been for the scumbags within her party.

[oldbluefox]

And a lady who was mocked and humiliated by her 'friends ' in the EU who saw her as a soft touch.

[Kendhni]

Ken wrote:

There was no way Cameron could have stayed on ... we saw the abuse May took, because she had not been a brexiteer ... and that lady did more to deliver brexit than anyone else in this country.

Without doubt the most accurate comment of the day

I think it is sad that she was the one that did all the leg work and created the document and put together the deal we now call brexit ... yet it is Johnson who is applauded and credited for her hard work, when in reality all he did was surrender all of the UK's/May's red lines.

[Gill W]

As we’re talking about Brexit, I see the Telegraph is saying that ‘Project Fear was right all along’!

If the Telegraph has turned, it must be bad!