Right Honorable Duncan Smith, MP

[Quizzical Bob]

DK, you confuse a pension, which is the result of hard work and sacrifice, with an income which you derive from employment. The pension is in addition to the minimal amount that the state returns to a loyal worker, if they are fortunate to live long enough to receive it. And please don't ever accuse me of whining, that is an offensive word.

[Dark Knight]

I will try to clarify
if a retired person has an income on or above the current average working salary of £26,000 from whatever source, why then do they need or qualify for the state pension on top of this?
My thought was that there should be a sliding sclae for the amount of STATE help you should recieve, so if you have a private income of above 35,000, you do NOT qualify for a pension from the state.
Iif you have an income between 25, 000 and 35,000 you get a reduced pension
If you have an income of less that 25, 000 the you qualify subject to testing for a state pemsion, testing to include , how much you have worked and contributed to during your working life and you get a pension accordingly or not

I am not advocating that the benefit sloths and feckless wasters get a free ride, but I am not saying everyone should be entitled to a free state pension either as plainly some people do not need it.

when you take a long fair minded look at what a bus pass, a 10 quid bonus and the heating allowances are in terms of real value, many many pensioners do not need them as they can afford to be without them and still manage

the cost of pensions in 85 billion a year from a country that cannot afford it, people cheered when they said they would tackle the benefit culture, so why get so het up , when they tackle the pension culture? double standards all round

QB, my use of the word whinning , should have been replaced by the word moaning perhaps?

[Andrea S]

Mr Darkie Knight, Now I understand where you are coming from. I agree that something needs to be done, certainly for future generations.

[Dark Knight]

Thanks Andrea..

[Quizzical Bob]

So, DK, you are advocating that pensioners should pay an effective additional tax rate of up to over 30% if they have decided to put aside something for their old age? That would make their total tax rate nearer to 60% and one of the highest in the world. Only for pensioners, of course. State pensions are not a benefit, they are a right that has been earned by a lifetime of contributions to the running of society. Any extra income has been paid for out of a lifetime's earnings and could just have easily have been spent on gambling, fast cars, even cruising. If the system that you advocate were to be introduced it would completely kill off the pension industry in Britain. Nobody would ever save anything for thei old age.

[Kendhni]

If we move to a point of means testing pensions then I think the government should also move to a point of reducing NI contributions significantly once a persons pensions savings reach a certain level.

I really do hope that the UK government does not go down the route of others who have siezed all pension funds (public and private) ... if that ever happened I would move even more money 'off shore' and go on a spending spree before doing what others do ... stick my hand out and expect the state to line it.

[Dark Knight]

why do people assume that the govenment giving you money is a right?
it is not a right, it is a perk , a benefit.
all this about paying in for a lifetime is rubbish, the deductions from your salary are for running the country, the NHS, fire, police, civil service etc etc, it is not invested or saved just to give you a pension.

i find it amusing that everyone is happy to see the govenrment being prudent elsewhere but when you mention doing something about the biggest drain on our resources, the old, evryone jumps up and down, 85 billion a year

QB you seem to think you have a right to a state pension, the reality is you do not, it is a benefit and can be removed with the stroke of a pen. its about time the whole system was overhauled

[HK phooey]

NI contributions do not fund the police, fire service or civil service.

[Dark Knight]

Taxes do
Ni funds the NHS , broadly speaking

[sumdumbloke]

NI contributions do not fund the police, fire service or civil service.

Yes they do.

NI is not hypothecated. It is treated by the treasury as general taxation, from which the very generous pensions of the public sector employees are paid.

The public sector pension liability is way, way in excess of contribution levels. I saw something recently that said for Police pensions to be properly funded, average contribution levels would need to be around 35%. They average 11%

[Dark Knight]

just done a quick Google and of the tax that I pay
£18.12 per day is spent on helping other
of that
£8.59 per day goes toward pensions
£0.89 per day goes to the unemployed
£3.53 goes on sickness and disabilty
the £18.12 is by far the biggest slice of me taxes and is 50% larger than goes on the NHS
So basically the state pension is by far the biggest drain on the country bar none, so the next time people bleat about unemployment, you can politely remind them that pensions cost the country 10 times more than paying for lazy feckless wasters to sit around all day and do F all, without factoring in the cost to the NHS of treating older citizens as well
food for thought

[Quizzical Bob]

why do people assume that the govenment giving you money is a right?
it is not a right, it is a perk , a benefit.
all this about paying in for a lifetime is rubbish, the deductions from your salary are for running the country, the NHS, fire, police, civil service etc etc, it is not invested or saved just to give you a pension.

i find it amusing that everyone is happy to see the govenrment being prudent elsewhere but when you mention doing something about the biggest drain on our resources, the old, evryone jumps up and down, 85 billion a year

QB you seem to think you have a right to a state pension, the reality is you do not, it is a benefit and can be removed with the stroke of a pen. its about time the whole system was overhauled

It absolutely is a right and not a benefit. All my previous governments took the decision not to invest the money that I gave them into a pension fund on the understanding that they would pay me a pension if I reached 65 and would finance it out of future taxation. That was their decision and choice. That was the deal at the time. Effectively, what they did was to borrow from my pension fund to pay for current outgoings knowing that they could collect, borrow or print some more when they needed to. This money that you talk about is not 'our resources' it is 'our money', it came from us and it belongs to us. I'll say it one more time: Old age pensions are a return for a lifetime of working and contributing to the running of the state, they are not a free handout. I have no way of knowing hoow old you are, DK, but if you are lucky then one day you may reach retirement age and wonder why you bothered to work hard and pay your honest taxes if some ungrateful people begrudge you your rightful rewards.

[Dark Knight]

QB
see my above post
Pensions cost more than the NHS and unemployment benefit combined, they are a huge drain on the country and are being paid to people who do not need it
bus passes and winter fuel payment is a wasteful extravagance that should not be paid to people who do not need it and should be means tested to ensure they go to the right people

[Silver_Shiney]

It's because there's a dwindling amount in the "national" pensions pot that State pensions are gradually being phased out. We are all being encouraged to take out private, or occupational, pension plans.

I understand QB's angst about the effective extreme rate of tax on wealthy pensioners who might not be given a State pension but, honestly, if your private arrangements give you a good standard of living... I like to think that we have a good standard of living yet our joint income is well below the threshold DK suggests.

Although income tax and NI contributions are talked about as two separate entities, they are both a tax on income.

[Quizzical Bob]

QB
see my above post
Pensions cost more than the NHS and unemployment benefit combined, they are a huge drain on the country and are being paid to people who do not need it
bus passes and winter fuel payment is a wasteful extravagance that should not be paid to people who do not need it and should be means tested to ensure they go to the right people

Actually, NHS spending is around £104billion. Pensions are £74.22 billion out of a total 'benefits' spend of £159billion so pensions cost £74billion, NHS and other benefits £189billion.

Again, you are taking a current snapshot of the situation. All those currently receiving a pension have already put in a lifetime of contributions of various forms. They are the past, they are the people who have made the country what it is now.

[Dark Knight]

I have at least another 20 years to work, till I reach 65, by then the state pension, if it exists, will kick in at 70 plus
so if they stop the state pension, what have I paid all my life for......sod all
so where is my right, my money, my this ,my that

its about time people realised a pension is not a right but a priveledge and it can be stopped with one signature

QB

my figures are based on where my taxes go and I believe they are accurate or the government is lying

[Onelife]

In principle I agree with what DS is suggesting but think he has a bloody cheek asking for it especially when his, and previous governments have been handing out billions of pounds in child benefits to those who can well afford to feed and clothe their children. Yes! They are trying to address this issue but as per normal they try to be all things to all “joint income parents” who are allowed earn double the income of a single income family without having their child benefit stopped.
{I really struggle to understand how they can square that one) ...anyone my point is that if this Government wants to do something that would elevate the need to beg from pensioners they need to tackle the billions which is squandered by those of us who see it as a little perk and not a necessity to clothe and feed our children.

Regards

OL

[towny44]

I have at least another 20 years to work, till I reach 65, by then the state pension, if it exists, will kick in at 70 plus
so if they stop the state pension, what have I paid all my life for......sod all
so where is my right, my money, my this ,my that

its about time people realised a pension is not a right but a priveledge and it can be stopped with one signature

QB

my figures are based on where my taxes go and I believe they are accurate or the government is lying

Dark Knightie, fortunately that signature is not and, hopefully, never will be yours.

[Dark Knight]

Towny

my point is fairly simple, there is not a pot of money with anyone's name on it for their pension and it can be stopped with the stroke of a pen
when people talk about their right to a pension, they forget that all their contributions are long since spent on all the services they have always enjoyed and the people paying their pension are the workers, not them.
anything given by the government is not a right ,it is a benefit or a privilege, depending on what you want to call it.
the country cannot support an 85 billion a year pension pot and it will stop, but it seems that certain people don't care as long as it doesn't happen in their lifetime.
there are many older people who can manage without the government handout, so why should they get it?

sounds like a lot of selfishness and short sightedness to me

[Mo2013]

Quizzical Bob is right. Dark Knight is wrong. But he might know that already.

What are National Insurance contributions for if not to provide a retired person with a pension ? Pensioners who can afford to cruise obviously do not need the winter fuel allowance or Christmas bonus and it should be quite easy to extrapolate those people whose income means they do not need these benefits.

Mo (a 66 year old pensioner who paid National Insurance contributions all her working life).

[Dark Knight]

as usual Mo, your limited knowledge of the subject shines through, your NI contributions are not sat just waiting for you to take them back, you have had the benefits of them throughout your life ,if you knew the first thing about the economy you may have grasped this

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[towny44]

Dark Knightie, Once you have fairly apportioned the tax benefits according to your own system, what will you do after several years when because some have spent all theirs and others have saved some?
Will you return for another fair share out of the taxable pot?

[Dark Knight]

Towny

I am talking about people with an income ,not using savings to live, if they still have an income then why the need for a pension? are people silly enough to squander their income to get £100 a week?
those with a lower income, would get a higher pension, so any pension would be proportionate to your income,
and by low income, I do not mean the workshy dossers who sponged all their life, but people who have worked and deserve help.
it seems to me that you can sort out benefits for the feckless and it is applauded but woe betide anyone who dare say anything wrong about pensioners
well sorry but any pensioner who can afford to spend thousands on luxuries like cruises is not my idea of a person who needs a pension.
anyway as this debate will no doubt be made personal ,soon I am out, I have enjoyed the debate thus far

[paultheeagle]

For what it's worth I do agree with Darknightie on most of his points...I think the State pension is a right and evryone who has paid their taxes throughout their working lives are entitled to the very basic pension.

Thank You

But I have a question, if I may.....Those that receive a higher pension than the state minimum.....have they not, more than likely, paid into a private pension scheme?....If so then that is private money and not public money, if so are they not entitled to keep their pension without being penalised....

I do agree though, those that do not need state pensioners benefits should not receive them......So many of you are happy for hard working families, who are not feckless, lazy, spongers to lose their benefits but the older person must not have their benefits cut at all....In the words of Hero Dave......'We are all in this together'.......supposedly.

[towny44]

Towny

I am talking about people with an income ,not using savings to live, if they still have an income then why the need for a pension? are people silly enough to squander their income to get £100 a week?
those with a lower income, would get a higher pension, so any pension would be proportionate to your income,
and by low income, I do not mean the workshy dossers who sponged all their life, but people who have worked and deserve help.
it seems to me that you can sort out benefits for the feckless and it is applauded but woe betide anyone who dare say anything wrong about pensioners
well sorry but any pensioner who can afford to spend thousands on luxuries like cruises is not my idea of a person who needs a pension.
anyway as this debate will no doubt be made personal ,soon I am out, I have enjoyed the debate thus far

DK, How will you segregate the workshy dossers from the deserving needy, and will you give them a lower pension than the low income worthies?
I suspect this discussion could run & run, perhaps we need a poll, very apt on LG voting day, I wonder is our forum set up to run these?