Current Affairs

[Kendhni]

Just briefly returning to the "should NHS pensions be downgraded?" discussion.

It already has been downgraded - once in 2008 and again in 2015. On both occasion benefits were reduced. For example retirement age increased. In 2015 it was changed from a final salary scheme to a career average scheme and widow/widower benefits were reduced. A considerable downgrade for some.

All valid points, but it is still dependent on the government ponzi scheme actually paying out ... that is far from being a given.
A proper DC scheme whereby funds are ring fenced could (in the long term) be considered an upgrade.

[towny44]

Just briefly returning to the "should NHS pensions be downgraded?" discussion.

It already has been downgraded - once in 2008 and again in 2015. On both occasion benefits were reduced. For example retirement age increased. In 2015 it was changed from a final salary scheme to a career average scheme and widow/widower benefits were reduced. A considerable downgrade for some.

All valid points, but it is still dependent on the government ponzi scheme actually paying out ... that is far from being a given.
A proper DC scheme whereby funds are ring fenced could (in the long term) be considered an upgrade.

Ponzi or not my understanding is that a firm needs to go bust before their pension scheme can be wound up. Now I know you consider the UK govt to be bankrupt, at least of ideas, but it's a long way from actually going bust.

[Kendhni]

Ponzi or not my understanding is that a firm needs to go bust before their pension scheme can be wound up. Now I know you consider the UK govt to be bankrupt, at least of ideas, but it's a long way from actually going bust.

Not as long as they have people piling in at the bottom to keep funding it
But there is a serious amount of unfunded liability both for state pension and DB pensions.

[towny44]

Ponzi or not my understanding is that a firm needs to go bust before their pension scheme can be wound up. Now I know you consider the UK govt to be bankrupt, at least of ideas, but it's a long way from actually going bust.

Not as long as they have people piling in at the bottom to keep funding it
But there is a serious amount of unfunded liability both for state pension and DB pensions.

It may be underfunded but I presume the state has the same legal responsibilities as public companies, so they have to continue paying pensions. I guess at some stage they may want to limit their liability, and propose something along the lines you suggest, however that would definitely upset the staff and lead to alot of union wrangling and threats of strikes, and ultimately some sort of compromise. But totally killing of Public sector DB pensions would surely lead to more demands for public sector pay to be more closely aligned to private sector pay, a bit of a catch 22 situation.

[barney]

You’d expect me to say this but I’m very satisfied with my final salary pension.
When I signed up to work for HMG, it was part of the contract.
I honoured my part of the contract and I fully expected HMG to honour their side.
I can’t even understand why there is any discussion about it.
It’s obviously under written by the government, as are anybody’s savings with a financial institution up to £85k .
I don’t hear anyone complaining about that.

[Kendhni]

Ponzi or not my understanding is that a firm needs to go bust before their pension scheme can be wound up. Now I know you consider the UK govt to be bankrupt, at least of ideas, but it's a long way from actually going bust.

Not as long as they have people piling in at the bottom to keep funding it
But there is a serious amount of unfunded liability both for state pension and DB pensions.

It may be underfunded but I presume the state has the same legal responsibilities as public companies, so they have to continue paying pensions. I guess at some stage they may want to limit their liability, and propose something along the lines you suggest, however that would definitely upset the staff and lead to alot of union wrangling and threats of strikes, and ultimately some sort of compromise. But totally killing of Public sector DB pensions would surely lead to more demands for public sector pay to be more closely aligned to private sector pay, a bit of a catch 22 situation.

Alignment could work either way. According to the ONS, in 2003/2004 the average public sector pay moved higher than the average private sector pay. That simply compares salaries, which can show a lot of variation, some higher some lower ... they also have a habit of overestimating their own value in a private sector world. Allowing them to do their own analysis, using their questionable like-for-like comparisons, even they were only able to stretch a difference of 0.9% (2021 data) in favour of the private sector. Naturally it is easy to find exceptions, so we can really only compare averages.

However that analysis excludes pensions and bonuses ... in private sector, bonuses may range between 0-10%, plus 3-10% on pensions, compared with the impact of DB pension which can add 25-30% onto the overall package, plus other benefits such as public sector discount schemes, bonuses (for some), pay offs and CETVs well in excess of value.

As a country we are currently carrying about £6trillion in pension liabilities which is growing exponentially (about 80% is state pension), various governments have acknowledged that this is a problem and has been described as a 'pension time bomb' ... while the BoE and regulators have been tightening up on private sector pensions nobody has properly addressed public sector DB pensions.

I have always wondered at what point will they start means testing the state pension?

[Mervyn and Trish]

You mean the usual penalise those who've worked hard and saved to support those whose who've dossed and frittered, like they do with care?

When my MIL went into a care home not only did she pay a higher fee, by selling her house, than those funded by the taxpayer, she also had to pay tax on the private pension she'd paid into to further subsidise the scroungers.

You'll gather I'm not keen on the principle.

[Kendhni]

You mean the usual penalise those who've worked hard and saved to support those whose who've dossed and frittered, like they do with care?

I would be totally against means testing the state pension as well ... people have spent the last 30-40 years contributing towards it, many will be planning their retirement around receiving it and they should receive the promised benefits.

I was just contemplating 'if' they may do it ... it has been raised on more than one occasion by one politician or another.

[Ray B]

You just have to love the police. A car tries to drive through a pedestrian only street, a woman acts as a bollard to prevent it. The police arrive and it's a case of, what happens next?

I hope the link works.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 5xKeqE4j7q

[screwy]

Williamson has resigned but doesn’t think he’s done anything wrong.! Unbelievable. !

[towny44]

Williamson has resigned but doesn’t think he’s done anything wrong.! Unbelievable. !

I never liked the guy even though he is a fellow Yorkshireman, but at least he has done the right thing in resigning, and taken some of the heat off Rishi.

[Kendhni]

Good to see, though Williamson should be forced to step down as MP as well .. there is no place for bullying in any workplace in the 21st century.
If Sunak could just get rid of some other baggage then he would be in good shape ready for the 17th.

[Stephen]

You just have to love the police. A car tries to drive through a pedestrian only street, a woman acts as a bollard to prevent it. The police arrive and it's a case of, what happens next?

I hope the link works.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 5xKeqE4j7q

Couldn’t get the sound to work Ray. Not your fault, cr*p link.

[Onelife]

Good to see, though Williamson should be forced to step down as MP as well .. there is no place for bullying in any workplace in the 21st century.
If Sunak could just get rid of some other baggage then he would be in good shape ready for the 17th.

Agree Ken …bulling within the work place comes in many guises, some go under the radar as just being throw away comments but all have the potential to erode the confidence of those on the receiving end…when done with intent.

If Williamson thought it was ok to send abusive texts one can only imagine how he conducted himself behind his office door.

[Stephen]

Just another titled rich public school twit who thinks he can do what he likes.

Good Riddance.

[Onelife]

Just another titled rich public school twit who thinks he can do what he likes.

Good Riddance.

He has contempt written all over his face from what I have seen of him.

[oldbluefox]

I found him unconvincing as a Minister and could not in all honesty think of anything he did, apart from waffling

[barney]

I found him unconvincing as a Minister and could not in all honesty think of anything he did, apart from waffling

I assume that he is in a Tory safe seat where a donkey with a blue rosette would win, because I can’t actually imagine anyone voting for the nob.

[Mervyn and Trish]

I agree 100% he needed to go, and I am also 100% opposed to bullying. There is no excuse.

I just have a little niggle in my mind, not just about this case, but others too.

The Civil Servant who claims they were told to jump out of the window says they mentioned it to HR but did not take the concern through the formal complaints process that exists. Instead they went to the media. That seems to be a common theme at the moment. I repeat, I think Williamson is in the wrong here, but as my Mum said two wrongs don't make a right. And for me, using the media, rather than the proper process, to try to hound someone out of a job is also bullying.

[towny44]

Just another titled rich public school twit who thinks he can do what he likes.

Good Riddance.

I dont think Raincliffe comprehensive quite qualifies as a public school, just goes to show that twits can also be state educated.

[Stephen]

It would appear he got his knighthood through the old boy network via Boris for services rendered, even though he couldn't keep a departmental role down for more than five minutes.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/sir-g ... ns-1959039

[Mervyn and Trish]

Never forget both Labour and the Lib Dems are led by titled twits!

[Kendhni]

A hilarious clip came through on our teams channel this morning. Sunak was the despatch box during Prime Ministers Questionable time answering some query while gesticulating with his left arm ... Braverman was behind him doing her usual nodding dog impersonation. The funny bit was that Braverman's actions were in sync with Sunaks left arm gesticulations ... making it look like he had her head on a piece of string.

If I can find it on the web I will post it up (our security people know how to lock down a system so I am unable to extract it from Teams).

[Bensham33]

Let's face it the entire Government is totally and completely incompetent from top to bottom. Time for a General Election I think, but of course we won't get one because the Tories are only interested in saving their own butts, they couldn't care less about the country.

Give Sir Keir and the Labour Party a chance, they can't do any worse than this lot.

[oldbluefox]

In which ways do you think the Labour Party would be any better than the Tories? So far I haven't heard anything from them to think they might deserve my vote. I look at the Shadow Cabinet which fills me with dread because I wouldn't trust any one of them.