In or Out of the EU ??

[emjay45]

Well, we in the Isle of Man are not in the EU but of course it affects us. If I had a vote which of course I won't I would definitely vote OUT.

[Quizzical Bob]

So, I guess that all those who want out don't trade with Europe? It can get quite difficult with all the customs problems. Been there, don't want to go there again.

[Silver_Shiney]

So, I guess that all those who want out don't trade with Europe? It can get quite difficult with all the customs problems. Been there, don't want to go there again.

I'm sure it can increase bureaucracy. However, IMHO, given the ease with which any European, especially from the poorer nations, can come here and live off our benefits system, I think it a price worth paying IF indeed red tape on imports/exports increases. But then, the machinery for that is already in place in respect of trade with non-EU nations.

If we've got something that Europeans want to buy, they'll buy it whether we are in the EU or not. If what they want is available elsewhere at a lower cost, they'll buy it there, irrespective of our membership.

We have signed away a shedload of our sovereignty to Brussels, we pay far too much money for.... what, exactly?

It's time to leave.

[Quizzical Bob]

There's a cost involved in trying to sell outside. That cost equates to jobs. Who should I lay off? The world is a lot different from 30 years ago and selling out there isn't easy or else we would all be doing it now. Don't forget that we are an island and it's already expensive to ship our products in comparison to countries in the centre of Europe. Germany, for example, they only have to stick their goods on a lorry and they're with their customers a few hours later.

[Dark Knight]

QB
perhaps a longer term view would be to concentrate on emerging markets like South America, China and Australia and stop trying to export to an overfed market that is declining
I think part of the issue is that we are afraid to look beyond Europe as a source of revenue longer term

[Quizzical Bob]

DK, it's very expensive to sell long-distance because of the cost of freight and travel, especially when there is an enormous market on our doorstep. Well, just across the pond.

[towny44]

There's a cost involved in trying to sell outside. That cost equates to jobs. Who should I lay off? The world is a lot different from 30 years ago and selling out there isn't easy or else we would all be doing it now. Don't forget that we are an island and it's already expensive to ship our products in comparison to countries in the centre of Europe. Germany, for example, they only have to stick their goods on a lorry and they're with their customers a few hours later.

QB, If the EU was only a free trade association of seperate countries with individual currencies and economies I would totally agree with you, but its not.
The movement toward fiscal union has inevitably meant closer economic and budgetry union as well, and a desire to ensure that all countries operate on a level playing field, just as long as the Germans are the referee.
Well now its time to rebel and join with those arch anarchists UKIP and set about burning down Brussels, figuratively speaking of course, unless, maybe..........

[Capt Black]

Time we got out of the EU. We've been giving in to the Eurocracy for far too long.

[Mr-big-bits-mk2]

Most people can understand the benefits of trade within Europe though personaly i don't see why such a club needs huge membership fees.

What people don't understand is why in order to trade some Britons have to share their jobs with Poles etc. Another propblem are the near endles rules and regs that come out of the EU.

Something i've never seen explained is how the trade benefits have improved, i'm sure EU or not we'd still be buying BMW's and the Germans would still be buying Aston Martins.

Sky news did an interesting article last year about Germany's trade with China. About 15 years ago the Germans went to great lengths to increase trade with China and now have excellent levels of exports there which for them is a godsend as it is a massive growing market and considering the mess within the EU probably something we should have done. As DK said earier there are huge emerging markets out there and the world is going to soon see a massive shift in power to places such as South America, India and China. Any country that pays more attenting to Greece than these new markets is going to find itself a long way down the world tables.

[Kendhni]

I'm sure it can increase bureaucracy. However, IMHO, given the ease with which any European, especially from the poorer nations, can come here and live off our benefits system,

For years I thought the blame for out of control worker migration lay at the feet of the EU but it appears the Labour government deliberately sought out migrant workers to come to the UK and kept absolutely no control over it ... so much for Browns public persona of 'British jobs for British people',

How Millibrain has the cheek to criticise the current governments policies on immigration when it was his own party that deliberately opened the flood gates.

[Kendhni]

it's very expensive to sell long-distance because of the cost of freight and travel, especially when there is an enormous market on our doorstep. Well, just across the pond.

I think that in a global economy that is no longer the case.
I can bring stuff in from China, India and other places significantly cheaper than I pay for it here. Many British (and other) companies are also finding that they can trade very effectively with the Far East as well.

[Mr-big-bits-mk2]

The world has become a very very small place. A couple of hundred years ago moving something from one side of the world to the other took months, no it's a day or two.

Many British companies now base production in the far east etc simply because even with the transportation costs it is still cheaper than producing the same good here in Britain, take Hornby who make trains, scalextric etc. Their entire production is now in China even though their biggest market is Europe.

[Mr-big-bits-mk2]

Ken, in 2004 when the A8 states (Poland etc) were joining the EU existing member states were allowed to set limits on how many people from the A8 were allowed to come to their country (any limit they liked from zero up). Virtualy all set limits except the UK which created a huge problem, every one who wanted out of the A8 states could only come here unless they were highly qualified in which case the other EU states would allow you in. The result of this is now part of British history as theycame in huge numbers.

[Manoverboard]

At the outset I voted for ' In '.

The whole thing certainly needs a major reform and that I believe will come from within, albeit eventually but it has to happen and even the Germans must appreciate that given that they are funding most of it.

Points that I consider included ...

I remember when we were dependent on American Companies for much of our industrial base pre EEC and how when times were hard in the US they shut them down to protect their own economy.

I also remember when the Japanese called the shots and now it is the German, next it will be the Chinese ... but one thing's for sure it will not be us, we have had our day.

Countries like Norway do their own thing and even with their oil the cost of everything is sky high.

On balance going it alone would concern me because it could potentially wipe out much of our retirement and pension funds, longer term it could be a disaster if the Euro Countries squeezed us out to protect their own economies.

I will therefore vote ' Yes '.

[Kendhni]

Ken, in 2004 when the A8 states (Poland etc) were joining the EU existing member states were allowed to set limits on how many people from the A8 were allowed to come to their country (any limit they liked from zero up). Virtualy all set limits except the UK which created a huge problem, every one who wanted out of the A8 states could only come here unless they were highly qualified in which case the other EU states would allow you in. The result of this is now part of British history as theycame in huge numbers.

Not only did they come, the government actively went out and searched for them to bring them here ... I wonder what promises were made to them?

[Mr-big-bits-mk2]

MOB, Norway hasn't spent it's revenue from North Sea oil. It is held in a huge 'sovereign wealth fund' that is currently valued at over 4 trillion NOK which is then used to invest in various things such as the stock market to grow it even further.

The fund is a massive saving scheme that props up state pensions etc.

[sumdumbloke]

I'm sure it can increase bureaucracy. However, IMHO, given the ease with which any European, especially from the poorer nations, can come here and live off our benefits system,

For years I thought the blame for out of control worker migration lay at the feet of the EU but it appears the Labour government deliberately sought out migrant workers to come to the UK and kept absolutely no control over it ... so much for Browns public persona of 'British jobs for British people',

How Millibrain has the cheek to criticise the current governments policies on immigration when it was his own party that deliberately opened the flood gates.

So if that were true, then EU migration would have all but stopped in May 2010 when the new government arrived.

Did it? Have EU migration levels changed?

Of course they haven't. You're entitled to your preference of party, but you can't make up little stories to suit.

[Mr-big-bits-mk2]

It's not quite so simple as that. We can't fully stop immigration within the EU. When The A8 joined in 2004 and the second wave (fifth expansion) in 2007 (Romania, Bulgaria etc) existing states could limit immigration from these countries for 7 years as stated earlier.

Now we did do this in 2007 which is why people are talking about Bulgarians etc coming here next year as they couldn't upon joining the EU. The main difference thoughis that Romanians etc can then go to any country within the EU as all boarders will open at the same time so in theory diluting immigration levels.

This is the opposite of what happened 10 years ago when the big A8 block joined and the only boarders open to them was Britain and Ireland. Had we had done as the rest of the EU did then current levels of immgrants would almost certainly have been much lower.

[Mr-big-bits-mk2]

What Ken has posted is not without merit.

Peter Mandleson made a statement yesterday stating 'the Tony Blair government not only welcomed people to work but sent out search parties to find migrants'.

[Manoverboard]

MOB, Norway hasn't spent it's revenue from North Sea oil. It is held in a huge 'sovereign wealth fund' that is currently valued at over 4 trillion NOK which is then used to invest in various things such as the stock market to grow it even further.

The fund is a massive saving scheme that props up state pensions etc.

Lucky them, eh ... although I did hear recently that the biggest oil field in Europe has been located in the Poole Bay area but no idea if that is factually correct nor indeed if they will be allowed to extract it if it is.

[barney]

Woah! MoB

cue the NIMBYs

[Kendhni]

I'm sure it can increase bureaucracy. However, IMHO, given the ease with which any European, especially from the poorer nations, can come here and live off our benefits system,

For years I thought the blame for out of control worker migration lay at the feet of the EU but it appears the Labour government deliberately sought out migrant workers to come to the UK and kept absolutely no control over it ... so much for Browns public persona of 'British jobs for British people',

How Millibrain has the cheek to criticise the current governments policies on immigration when it was his own party that deliberately opened the flood gates.

So if that were true, then EU migration would have all but stopped in May 2010 when the new government arrived.

Did it? Have EU migration levels changed?

Of course they haven't. You're entitled to your preference of party, but you can't make up little stories to suit.

Made up ??? ... when it comes to Labour incompetence you don't have to make things up.
This story has been widely reported by all secitons of the media over the past few days, one short example being this article where Mandelson said “In 2004 when as a Labour government, we were not only welcoming people to come into this country to work, we were sending out search parties for people and encouraging them, in some cases, to take up work in this country.”. I personally would want to know what was meant by 'encouraging them' (promises of cash, promises of benefits, relocation expenses??) .. not exactly Gordon Browns promise of British jobs for British people.

I remember an outcry when the coalition did try to bring it under control a few years back ... some started squealing about human rights, some started squealing about Europe ... did a senior immigration official not resign over that, complaining that the backlog was massive?

[Manoverboard]

Woah! MoB

cue the NIMBYs

We'll ask the Jolly Green Giant ... bet he says he will willingly swap his view across the bay of two beautiful Peregrines for a line of Oil Derricks ( Oy'l Dereks )

[Silver_Shiney]

So if that were true, then EU migration would have all but stopped in May 2010 when the new government arrived.

Did it? Have EU migration levels changed?

Of course they haven't. You're entitled to your preference of party, but you can't make up little stories to suit.

Why would it have changed when the Trots got voted out? Because they came to some agreement with Brussels, it's now difficult for the coalition to stop immigration. We are required to accept migrants because of EU law - which is why we must leave and regain our sovereignty.