Woolwich Attack

[Silver_Shiney]

Mo,

Give up you cant change people whose minds are closed.

They probably do not know any Moslems and are of the 'old brigade' who still beilieve in the British Empire.

John

Or, more likely, believe in good manners and fed up with the gradual erosion of our national identity

[Dark Knight]

SS
here here
we are too scared to speak out for fear of being seen as closed minded or racist ,when it simply that people do not want too see Britain eroded

[ChesterfieldJohn]

Mo,

Give up you cant change people whose minds are closed.

They probably do not know any Moslems and are of the 'old brigade' who still beilieve in the British Empire.

John

Or, more likely, believe in good manners and fed up with the gradual erosion of our national identity

So Moslems all have bad manners.

Obviously you know nothing about them at all.

John

[Dark Knight]

John

do you have many muslim friends that come round your house and how often do you go to theirs?
have you read the Koran? or been to the chesterfield mosque?

if the british muslims are as peaceful as you say, how do you explain how they are rdaicalsied?

[ChesterfieldJohn]

John

do you have many muslim friends that come round your house and how often do you go to theirs?
have you read the Koran? or been to the chesterfield mosque?

if the british muslims are as peaceful as you say, how do you explain how they are rdaicalsied?

I have read most of the qua-ran I did not finish it all.
I have many friends whose houses I have not visited what difference does this make?

Yes I have visited the mosque in Barker Lane Chesterfield.

How many Moslem 'acquaintances do you have? have you visited a Mosque not a posh one on a cruise but locally?

The qua-ran and the bible have many similar stories in them.

John

[Dark Knight]

John
I have a few muslim and arab friends and have been to couple of mosques in Burnley and Blackburn
what I was trying to get at was, if people arguing about the Koran etc and muslim customs had actually any experience of it?
you seem to have a fair grasp of the culture which gives weight to your posts,
sadly some people do not have any knowledge but argue for a topic with little credibility or meaningful understanding

[Mo2013]

SS - you have lost any moral high ground you may have thought you had.

[ChesterfieldJohn]

John
I have a few muslim and arab friends and have been to couple of mosques in Burnley and Blackburn
what I was trying to get at was, if people arguing about the Koran etc and muslim customs had actually any experience of it?
you seem to have a fair grasp of the culture which gives weight to your posts,
sadly some people do not have any knowledge but argue for a topic with little credibility or meaningful understanding

Dark Knight.

In my opinion the problem is religion itself, look back through history, how many wars are started by religious fanatics?
I was bought up a strict Church Of England worshipper, I was a sunday school teacher, a chorister and and alter boy.
I am now an atheist, because of this my mother disowned me and this to me sums up Religion and its fanatical followers.

John

[Dark Knight]

John
I do not have a fixed view of any religion, myself I would be an agnostic , in the proper sense of the word, I was brought up RC but haven't been to church since I was in my teens apart from weddings, funerals and christenings
I agree with you, religion is and has been the root cause of much of the worlds strife and at their heart most religions are very similar .the Koran , as I understand it, is the word of God given to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel, so it must by its nature be closer to the bible than many think?

[ChesterfieldJohn]

John
I do not have a fixed view of any religion, myself I would be an agnostic , in the proper sense of the word, I was brought up RC but haven't been to church since I was in my teens apart from weddings, funerals and christenings
I agree with you, religion is and has been the root cause of much of the worlds strife and at their heart most religions are very similar .the Koran , as I understand it, is the word of God given to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel, so it must by its nature be closer to the bible than many think?

It certainly is like the bible I had many discussions about it with a Moslem work colleague whose son is training to be an Imam at a school near Manchester, but they usually ended with us agreeing to disagree as the Bible was written before the quaran lol

John

[Dark Knight]

at the last firm I worked for, one of the men there was an Iman at the mosque and was as peaceful and happy a man as you would ever meet.
I didn't realise he was a senior figure in the mosque till , one of the younger lads told me? very unassuming and reserved

[Silver_Shiney]

SS - you have lost any moral high ground you may have thought you had.

You are quite right, I should not have said that and I unreservedly apologise

[Silver_Shiney]

I agree with you, religion is and has been the root cause of much of the worlds strife and at their heart most religions are very similar .the Koran , as I understand it, is the word of God given to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel, so it must by its nature be closer to the bible than many think?

At their heart, most religions are very different, but this isn't the thread to discuss those differences.

the Koran , as I understand it, is the word of God given to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel, so it must by its nature be closer to the bible than many think?

Were that so, then the Book of Mormon (Joseph Smith) would supplant even the Qu'ran. If Gabriel did, indeed give Mohammed this "revelation", it would be reasonable to assume that it would be in line with the Bible, not contradict it.

[Silver_Shiney]

I would be very interested to know the views of the imam concerning two young ladies I saw recently. Their facecloths were made of a very attractive material.

Went well with their miniskirts.....

[HK phooey]

If Cameron is serious about 'gagging the hate clerics' a good first step would be to drag the vile Anjem Choudary in off the streets and shake him 'til he rattles. If he is publicly seen to be doing something to target the problem then hopefully the innocent muslims that lead a decent life in our communities will be left alone. All this 'free country' and multicultural claptrap is exactly what has allowed scum like him to trample all over our society.

[ChesterfieldJohn]

I would be very interested to know the views of the imam concerning two young ladies I saw recently. Their facecloths were made of a very attractive material.

Went well with their miniskirts.....

Why, would it make a difference to your opinion?

You already have it set in stone.

Why just the opinion on this?
Perhaps because it suits your argument.

Please open your mind.

John

[Serendipity]

If Cameron is serious about 'gagging the hate clerics' a good first step would be to drag the vile Anjem Choudary in off the streets and shake him 'til he rattles. If he is publicly seen to be doing something to target the problem then hopefully the innocent muslims that lead a decent life in our communities will be left alone. All this 'free country' and multicultural claptrap is exactly what has allowed scum like him to trample all over our society.

Very well said HK phooey and him and the other preachers of hate don't mind being kept and financed by the people they so hate.

[Manoverboard]

I would be very interested to know the views of the imam concerning two young ladies I saw recently. Their facecloths were made of a very attractive material.

Went well with their miniskirts.....

I, on the other hand, would not.

The young ladies are simply following our wish for them to integrate and this they are doing whilest not completely losing sight of their roots. It is a common sight, and very acceptable to me, even in places like Turkey.

[Silver_Shiney]

I would be very interested to know the views of the imam concerning two young ladies I saw recently. Their facecloths were made of a very attractive material.

Went well with their miniskirts.....

Why, would it make a difference to your opinion?

You already have it set in stone.

Why just the opinion on this?
Perhaps because it suits your argument.

Please open your mind.

John

Why do you think I have a closed mind?

I merely commented that, as girls who took the "dress modestly" command too literally concerning their faces, they chose to ignore it concerning the rest of their apparel.

My "argument", as you choose to call it, is that the Qu'ran does not command the use of a burqa. Did you read that URL I posted?

"However, The Quran does not specifically mention the burqa or tell women to wear such extremely confining clothes. Instead, it instructs men and women to dress and behave modestly in society (24:31), which the Ulama or “Scholars” do agree upon. Modern day Muslims base their authority regarding the burqa on the hadith or collected traditions of life in the days of prophet Muhammad. It is important to note here that these “collected traditions” have no place in Islam, (please see relevant articles on this site). Most followers of these traditions know little of their origins or authenticity. For the thousands of traditions attributed to the Prophet only one bears notable credibility:

“Do not write down anything I say except the Quran. Whoever has written something other than Quran let him destroy it.” (Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, Vol. 1, page 171 also Sahih Muslim, Book 42, Number 7147).

With contradiction and confused thrown up by the hadith and “scholars of Islam” let us consider what the Quran, the word of God, says on the topic of a dress code.

For women: Cover your chest (24:31); Lengthen your garments (33:59) and for both sexes; The BEST garment is righteousness and modest conduct (7:26).

The word burqa is not to be found anywhere in the Quran, but as it falls under the heading of hijab which is used in Quran we should explore its use. The Arabic word hijab can be translated into veil or yashmak. Other meanings for the word include screen, barrier, cover(ing), mantle, curtain, drapes, partition, division, divider etc.
The word hijab appears in the Qur’an seven times, five of them as “hijab” and twice as “hijaban”. See 7:46, 17:45, 19:17, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51. None of these “hijab” words are used in the Quran in reference to what the traditional Muslims call today “the dress code for Muslim woman”. Hijab in the Qur’an has nothing to do with a woman’s dress code. "

[Mo2013]

Alan - firstly thank you for your apology. Secondly, what I have read is slightly different to what you have quoted. But, yet again, you are splitting hairs because you are talking about one word - burqa - yet texts refer to a face covering by any other name. Getting bogged down in semantics.

John, I agree absolutely that religion is the root cause of most conflicts in the world and it ought to be banned. Furthermore, I am not going to get into a battle of words with those who will undoubtedly justify their faith - witness recent posts - since such exchanges usually end in personal insult. And A.N. Other trying to get someone to agree with them about their faith is rather like the Muslims wanting us all to convert to Islam? Everyone thinks their faith is the right faith. I think too that people have forgotten that in our past Christians themselves set off to far flung countries colonising other peoples and converting them to Christianity. Remember the Holy Wars? And still it goes on.

I believe that the peaceful Muslim majority must address the known radical preachers and deal with them. They should not allow this cancer to continue to grow because the ideals of the hate preachers have become corrupt and actions taken in the name of Jihad are an abomination to Islam. If the Muslim community itself will not take action against those who would bring disgrace upon Islam, then the government should now adopt a zero tolerance policy on anyone preaching hate in our country. There will always be divisions when it is clear that some have little or no tolerance for those who wish to practise their traditions in this free democratic country of ours.

[david63]

I would add Mo that the sentiments of your last paragraph also apply to non Muslims in this country under the guise of the BNP et al.

[Mo2013]

If Cameron is serious about 'gagging the hate clerics' a good first step would be to drag the vile Anjem Choudary in off the streets and shake him 'til he rattles. If he is publicly seen to be doing something to target the problem then hopefully the innocent muslims that lead a decent life in our communities will be left alone. All this 'free country' and multicultural claptrap is exactly what has allowed scum like him to trample all over our society.

Would you rather live in a dictatorship? I am sure that you enjoy the freedoms that we are ALL allowed in this country. The fact is that, like a lot of other things, people have taken advantage, so it is up to our government to now put a stop to those who have abused our freedom of speech to spout hatred and venom which has spawned attacks upon our nation. But a free country is what you enjoy, and if one is not to be considered racist and bigoted, then one perhaps should not be using words like 'multicultural claptrap'. This country will always have divisions whilst people think like that.

[Mo2013]

I would add Mo that the sentiments of your last paragraph also apply to non Muslims in this country under the guise of the BNP et al.

David, agreed. The fact is that we have freedom of speech in this country but we don't often like what is being said. Sadly, intolerance, racism and bigotry are still alive and well.

[Serendipity]

Perhaps if this country had not tolerated the preachers of hate and made it possible for them to spit out their venom on the streets of our cities, the BNP etc would not exist. The reason that they do is because the British public now live in fear of where the next attacks of terrorism will take place.
I am not, by the way a supporter of any radical groups.
People who commit atrocities lose their human rights as far as I am concerned.

[Manoverboard]

Perhaps if this country had not tolerated the preachers of hate and made it possible for them to spit out their venom on the streets of our cities, the BNP etc would not exist.

The BNP and their ilk have existed in this Country for yonks and would still target immigrants even if they all stayed at home knitting pullovers for our soldiers ... it is a sickness of the mind on both sides of the divide.