Baby Boomers: are they bleeding the welfare state and the co

[Susan Watt]

Spot on Gill W. I worked from leaving school to taking early retirement to look after my husband. My main job I had for nearly 37 years. I have a reduced pension from that job and a carers allowance. When I reach retirement age and lose the carers allowance I will need my pension. Just because I saved money for a few luxuries in my old age instead of spending it on alcohol, cigarettes etc. I don't see why I should now lose the pension I have paid into with my taxes.

[Kendhni]

I think it naive to expect baby boomers who don't need their pension to give it up while they see such waste elsewhere in the benefits system. Surely it will be seen as giving it to those undeserving, well publicised cases we so often see in the Daily Mail?

Well said Rob .. and not just the Daily Mail ... every week our local paper carries many stories about people in court who have been abusing the welfare system ... and yet some still choose to believe it is only a small minority.

It is actually not the state pension that is the major issue, it is the non-state element when people have not contributed enough to justify the pensions they were promised and now received. Maybe it is time that the government looked at that element and adjusted the amount paid based on actual contribution. That would produce a fairer outcome.

That's a bit harsh Ken, if they were to apply your logic to my private sector company pension I suspect mine would virually disappear. The majority of the contributions came from my employer, and if the pot I ended up with had been used to buy an annuity it would have been significantly less, even 13 years ago. However it is not a drain on the public purse, unless my company goes bust, so that's something DK cannot carp about.

It may be harsh but it is the reality.
Taking the state pension out of the equation (since it is base don different criteria), then anyone who is getting a pension of a value that is beyond their contributions is basically stealing money from their own children.

Many of these pensions are being paid based on promises and circumstances that did not come to fruitiion.

[Kendhni]

I think it naive to expect baby boomers who don't need their pension to give it up while they see such waste elsewhere in the benefits system. Surely it will be seen as giving it to those undeserving, well publicised cases we so often see in the Daily Mail?

Well said Rob .. and not just the Daily Mail ... every week our local paper carries many stories about people in court who have been abusing the welfare system ... and yet some still choose to believe it is only a small minority.

It is actually not the state pension that is the major issue, it is the non-state element when people have not contributed enough to justify the pensions they were promised and now received. Maybe it is time that the government looked at that element and adjusted the amount paid based on actual contribution. That would produce a fairer outcome.

That's a bit harsh Ken, if they were to apply your logic to my private sector company pension I suspect mine would virually disappear. The majority of the contributions came from my employer, and if the pot I ended up with had been used to buy an annuity it would have been significantly less, even 13 years ago. However it is not a drain on the public purse, unless my company goes bust, so that's something DK cannot carp about.

The non-state element is invested in different funds. The value of your holding will depend on the performance of those funds. That is out of the government's control. Active management of the pension policy is essential, to move between funds during the life of the policy.

But that is only half the story ... many of the annuities given years ago are effectively unsustainable with money being taken out of people retiring later to fund the earlier ones (i.e. new retirees get very poor annuity rates) ... that is why nobody is willing to do away with annuities because they can not then fund the false promises ... so they keep stealing the money from the next generation to fund the previous generation.

Worse still are public sector pensions which have now been known for over a decade to be unsustainable ... but the previous government stuck its head up its ass about that issue and the current government is too busy fire fighting the economy. In another 5-10 years when the current mess is sorted then the pension crisis, which will be exponentially worse, is going to be a massive issue ... at that point any promises made yesterday and today will be off the table.

[towny44]

I think it naive to expect baby boomers who don't need their pension to give it up while they see such waste elsewhere in the benefits system. Surely it will be seen as giving it to those undeserving, well publicised cases we so often see in the Daily Mail?

Well said Rob .. and not just the Daily Mail ... every week our local paper carries many stories about people in court who have been abusing the welfare system ... and yet some still choose to believe it is only a small minority.

It is actually not the state pension that is the major issue, it is the non-state element when people have not contributed enough to justify the pensions they were promised and now received. Maybe it is time that the government looked at that element and adjusted the amount paid based on actual contribution. That would produce a fairer outcome.

That's a bit harsh Ken, if they were to apply your logic to my private sector company pension I suspect mine would virually disappear. The majority of the contributions came from my employer, and if the pot I ended up with had been used to buy an annuity it would have been significantly less, even 13 years ago. However it is not a drain on the public purse, unless my company goes bust, so that's something DK cannot carp about.

It may be harsh but it is the reality.
Taking the state pension out of the equation (since it is base don different criteria), then anyone who is getting a pension of a value that is beyond their contributions is basically stealing money from their own children.

Many of these pensions are being paid based on promises and circumstances that did not come to fruitiion.

Ken, do you actually know how a final salary (defined benefit) private sector company pension is funded? It is the responsibility of the company to ensure their pension fund is solvent by paying extra funds in, from their profits, to ensure they can meet the pension fund commitments.
So why would this be classed as "stealing money from their own children", unless or until the fund is wound up and then the Govts. Pension protection fund would be needed.

[Kendhni]

towny, if you take a very simplistic view then you are correct, however the markets did not evolve in the way that they were expected to and successive governments decided to use pension funds in different ways to obtain tax revenue. I am less concerned about private sector final salary schemes since, where possible, companies are making up short falls ... but that has not always been possible (i.e. crooks like Maxwell) .. I am very concerned though about public sector pension provision .. too many promises and far too little contribution.

It is all very well saying 'the company should have done this', 'the government should have done that' ... but those things did not happen, so in all cases where do you think the shortfalls are now being obtained from? However, as I understand it, it is expected that this will come to a head within the next 15 years and some are going to find out that promises made mean nothing and reality will take over.

[towny44]

towny, if you take a very simplistic view then you are correct, however the markets did not evolve in the way that they were expected to and successive governments decided to use pension funds in different ways to obtain tax revenue. I am less concerned about private sector final salary schemes since, where possible, companies are making up short falls ... but that has not always been possible (i.e. crooks like Maxwell) .. I am very concerned though about public sector pension provision .. too many promises and far too little contribution.

It is all very well saying 'the company should have done this', 'the government should have done that' ... but those things did not happen, so in all cases where do you think the shortfalls are now being obtained from? However, as I understand it, it is expected that this will come to a head within the next 15 years and some are going to find out that promises made mean nothing and reality will take over.

Ken, I do hope my company pension scheme's failure is towards the end of this expected 15 yr period, by that time I suspect my income requirement will have significantly reduced and anyway by then I may be too gaga to even notice.

[Mr-big-bits-mk2]

There was an interesting documentary a year or so ago regarding this, Panirama or something. It whent through how pensions are calculated EG, you'll take this out so we/you need to pay this in however it escaped just about everyones notice that life expactancy was rising and the formula was way way off. People would retire at say 65 and be expected to live to 70 so the pension pot only needs to average 5 years worth of payments.

Alas we now live to 80 or so and the funds for the extra 10 years havn't been put aside.

[Mr-big-bits-mk2]

Hmmm, spellcheck seems to have packed up and i'm it seems unable to read my post before hitting submit.

[Silver_Shiney]

Hmmm, spellcheck seems to have packed up and i'm it seems unable to read my post before hitting submit.

never mind, boss, we can still get your meaning!

[david63]

Hmmm, spellcheck seems to have packed up and i'm it seems unable to read my post before hitting submit.

If you hit the "Preview" button before the "Submit" button you can view your post. Also you have 15 minutes after submitting your post in which you can edit it.

[Dark Knight]

wish I had thought of that before I started this

[HK phooey]

So does everyone else

[Dark Knight]

well you know the answer, if you don't like it, don't read it and don't comment

anyway, after a good knights sleep, I have decided to jump on the gravy train, sod the economy or the younger generation and drain the country for all I can, without giving a toss about anyone else and I AM adopting the I'm alright Jack attitude that serves so many so well.

Middle England here I come....best book a cruise just to be sure, I am squandering the countries wealth properly

[gfwgfw]

gfw
couldn't you fit "Bumpkin" on the plate....shame


cue archers theme tune....a simple tale of simple country folk

dum dee dum de dum dee dum.....etc

Kev

Just picked up your very kind post after a great day out with my ferrets. . . . and much rewarded by your kind appellations

Luboo lots

Graham and the ferrets
y

[Dancing Queen]

Good to hear you've had a nice day with the Ferrets Graham

As always lots of lub xxx

[Quizzical Bob]

well you know the answer, if you don't like it, don't read it and don't comment

anyway, after a good knights sleep, I have decided to jump on the gravy train, sod the economy or the younger generation and drain the country for all I can, without giving a toss about anyone else and I AM adopting the I'm alright Jack attitude that serves so many so well.

Middle England here I come....best book a cruise just to be sure, I am squandering the countries wealth properly

Well done! You've seen the light at last. Of course it's not the country's wealth that your spending, just some of your own money that has grudgingly been returned to you.

[Dark Knight]

QB
I am going over to the Dark Side of Middle England and sod the commoners, they should have got off their lazy arses and got a decent job
sod the next generation , I am having it all

[Quizzical Bob]

QB
I am going over to the Dark Side of Middle England and sod the commoners, they should have got off their lazy arses and got a decent job
sod the next generation , I am having it all

Leave some for me

[Dark Knight]

better get in before I do or there will be nowt left

[Kendhni]

towny, if you take a very simplistic view then you are correct, however the markets did not evolve in the way that they were expected to and successive governments decided to use pension funds in different ways to obtain tax revenue. I am less concerned about private sector final salary schemes since, where possible, companies are making up short falls ... but that has not always been possible (i.e. crooks like Maxwell) .. I am very concerned though about public sector pension provision .. too many promises and far too little contribution.

It is all very well saying 'the company should have done this', 'the government should have done that' ... but those things did not happen, so in all cases where do you think the shortfalls are now being obtained from? However, as I understand it, it is expected that this will come to a head within the next 15 years and some are going to find out that promises made mean nothing and reality will take over.

Ken, I do hope my company pension scheme's failure is towards the end of this expected 15 yr period, by that time I suspect my income requirement will have significantly reduced and anyway by then I may be too gaga to even notice.

It is not going to be the failure of these schemes that will see their demise, it is going to be a rebellion of the next generation who will refuse to fund the pensions and 'golden retirements' of their parents as they struggle to pay for mortgages and fund their own lifestyles ... promises of inheritance will be worthless compared to the cost of funding the previous generation.

[Kendhni]

I used to believe that if you have been working under a contractual agreement of a pension then you should get it, but, particularly with the public sector, and successive governments doing nothing about resolving the issues that have been well documented for almost 15 years then it is now time to say all previous agreements are now off the table until a resolution is found.

We are on the brink of public rebellion over the funding of other peoples lifestyles.

[Onelife]

Absolutely agree Ken,

Let’s face it most of the benefits today have been introduced as vote winners with little thought as to how they can be funded.

Regards

Keith

[Dark Knight]

As I have said many many times, the state pension is a benefit

funnily enough most people think its a right

[gfwgfw]

Kev - The Forum's Rottweiler

Take a Bob Martins

Bumpkin luboo lots

Graham

[Quizzical Bob]

As I have said many many times, the state pension is a benefit

funnily enough most people think its a right

And as I have said as many times, it is something that has been paid for.