Should excellence be rewarded?

[Kendhni]

I sometimes get the impression that in Britain we are forever trying to dumb society down to the level of the lowest common denominator ... so that we can claim an all inclusive society. If someone is rewarded there is usually someone willing to stand up and complain about elitism etc.

I personally think we should be doing more to promote the very best in our society and providing them with additional funds and elite schooling based on academic excellence.

[ChesterfieldJohn]

I sometimes get the impression that in Britain we are forever trying to dumb society down to the level of the lowest common denominator ... so that we can claim an all inclusive society. If someone is rewarded there is usually someone willing to stand up and complain about elitism etc.

I personally think we should be doing more to promote the very best in our society and providing them with additional funds and elite schooling based on academic excellence.

Ken,

Whilst I agree about the schooling it will never happen in this country, the best schools and universities prefer to take the money people over the average Joe.
Can you imagine what would happen a working class boy from Doncaster joining the Bullingdon club

John

John

[Kendhni]

I agree John ... there will always be the public school boys where money talks ... but I think we need elite schools based purely on academic achievement.

[david63]

... but I think we need elite schools based purely on academic achievement.

Isn't that what the government are trying to do by creating "academies"?

[ChesterfieldJohn]

... but I think we need elite schools based purely on academic achievement.

Isn't that what the government are trying to do by creating "academies"?

Are they the same as the old High schools?



John

[Kendhni]

Not sure, but local to us, the acadamy is basically just a renamed PolyTech ... not necessarily catering for or funding the academic elite (who are more likely to go to Grammar and Uni).

[Boris+]

Ken I have to agree with you - rewarding excellence and achievement is a good thing. Besides which, some people need 'stretching' academically - and this is hard to find in the current state education system.

Now I know all about the argument that people shouldn't have to pay for education etc., but then I have come across people who prefer to spend their money on cars, domestic stuff, bling etc., and not on the children for educational purposes. I can recall the remarks made by such people along the lines of 'what, no new car/house/extension this year?' and of course they would then launch into details of what they had purchased. I would say nothing, but our interest was in education for our daughter.

By heck it's a smug feeling to meet up with those people now, and so we know we did the right thing (for us).

Em

[ChesterfieldJohn]

Ken I have to agree with you - rewarding excellence and achievement is a good thing. Besides which, some people need 'stretching' academically - and this is hard to find in the current state education system.

Now I know all about the argument that people shouldn't have to pay for education etc., but then I have come across people who prefer to spend their money on cars, domestic stuff, bling etc., and not on the children for educational purposes. I can recall the remarks made by such people along the lines of 'what, no new car/house/extension this year?' and of course they would then launch into details of what they had purchased. I would say nothing, but our interest was in education for our daughter.

By heck it's a smug feeling to meet up with those people now, and so we know we did the right thing (for us).

Em

No one should need to pay for the best education in this country.
That is what sums up all that is wrong with the system.

It is every persons right to spend their money in whatever way they prefer.
Dont belittle people who have a different choice than yours.
Oh and we supported one of our daughters through University.

John

[Andrea S]

Several of the senior schools in Nottingham have become academy's.

I previously thought that these academy's concentrated on IT and technical studies.

Now I have even less understanding as only last week, work finished on Northgate Primary school which has been re named Northgate Acadamy and is part of the Djanoligy Academy which is now a Learning Trust.

The Headmistress is excited that becoming an academy will give a greater independence to allow them to continue their ambition to provide an exciting future for 3-19year olds.

[Boris+]

Hi John,

I was not belittling anyone - I was merely commenting that when people have a choice of what to spend their money on and decide not to spend it on education of any sort (could be extra sports coaching for a truly gifted kid which just might not be available in any school anywhere) that in my opinion they have possible got it wrong.

I know that I am going to possibly get this wrong and absolutely mean no offence, but people can buy a deluxe vehicle if they wish but if their funds are limited then perhaps an ordinary vehicle would have provided just the same facility and the spare money can go on the children. I've seen parents who have sent their son to school in clothes which were either threadbare or far too small, he used to pinch stuff from the other kids (including food), but they had a top of the range car!

From my own personal point of view time is the most valuable thing we ever have - you can't get it back, and when it's gone, it's gone. Use it unwisely or squander it and it is the greatest waste there is. Similarly, opportunity - missing an opportunity or throwing an opportunity away falls into the same category for me. That is not to say that it is automatically the wisest thing for anyone, it is simply just me being me.

I put the two together, I won't waste time and I won't waste an opportunity. Put that into the mix with bringing up a child - I put my daughter first every time, and I am glad I did. I made the decision to spend on 'educational' extras, and I am content.

If and when we are ever blessed with a grandchild, it will all begin again.

Em

[sumdumbloke]

Ken I have to agree with you - rewarding excellence and achievement is a good thing. Besides which, some people need 'stretching' academically - and this is hard to find in the current state education system.

Now I know all about the argument that people shouldn't have to pay for education etc., but then I have come across people who prefer to spend their money on cars, domestic stuff, bling etc., and not on the children for educational purposes. I can recall the remarks made by such people along the lines of 'what, no new car/house/extension this year?' and of course they would then launch into details of what they had purchased. I would say nothing, but our interest was in education for our daughter.

By heck it's a smug feeling to meet up with those people now, and so we know we did the right thing (for us).

Em

But that's buying an advantage, and Ken posited the idea that advantage and elitism should be encouraged based on innate ability (academic excellence).

The problem comes when the not so bright get access to the very best educational establishments based entirely on wealth - usually unearned wealth - thereby denying the place to the bright but not so wealthy child. Two or three generations of this (and in Britain we've had 600 years of it) and we get the self-serving, self-replicating nonsense today where one generation of chinless under-achiever cedes the floor to the next. It will never change because the levers of power are part and parcel of the 'prize' these people see as rightly theirs - they've bought it after all. (if you doubt this look at the current crop of ministers and honestly weigh them up. The brightest are undoubtedly the least advantaged who are there despite the system; the most senior and most powerful are those born to it)

I'm really glad you used the word smug to describe the feeling you get when you stop to consider this. I have others.

[Dark Knight]

Back on topic

of course excellence should rewarded , that is how you get the brightest and the best to not only work in the UK but stay in the UK


Off topic
what is wrong with paying towards your child's education, if it gets them further up the ladder, not socially but educationally ,which allows them a chance at a better career?
why should the best of things be free, people quite happily pay for private dentistry, private health care etc, so why is education so different?

My Sibling is now a judge and my parents worked Feckin hard to get her through Uni, bar school , pupillage etc and now they see the result of that sacrifice, perhaps instead of booking that next cruise some people should invest in their families future? but then again that would mean making a sacrifice, which many on here seem unable to do

[sumdumbloke]

The question was about excellence, as was my reply; entirely on topic.

If you base a system on academic excellence that puts the most able people in the best establishments, then you embed a culture of excellence.

If you say, irrespective of academic ability, that the places in those excellent establishments are for sale to the highest bidders, then you embed a culture of jolly mediocrity. Some small % of the richest will also happen to be academically excellent, but most won't.

Excellence/elitism was the topic; not the +/- of private education.

[Dark Knight]

err SDM not sure where you are coming from, the whole topic wandered as they do, so I posted a direct reply to the OP plus a reply to the off topic about schools and fee paying

not directed at you

[sumdumbloke]

err SDM not sure where you are coming from, the whole topic wandered as they do, so I posted a direct reply to the OP plus a reply to the off topic about schools and fee paying

not directed at you

Fair enough - my mistake

[Dark Knight]

the joys of a forum Eh

[david63]

One of the reasons why you cannot reward excellence/ability is that those who are less able will be traumatised for the rest of their lives, if you are to believe the current thinking (which, incidentally, I do not)

[ChesterfieldJohn]

One of the reasons why you cannot reward excellence/ability is that those who are less able will be traumatised for the rest of their lives, if you are to believe the current thinking (which, incidentally, I do not)

I agree with you its ridiculous to belive that the less able are traumatised.

Dark Knight everyone should be able to have the best education free otherwise the poor are penalised.
My parents could never have afforded to pay for my education.
I attending Grammar School as it was in my day and they had to have assistance to pay for my uniform, even though they both worked and worked damned hard.

John

[HK phooey]

Grammar schools should again be an option in all boroughs, and qualify for state funding. It was a nonsense to say that these schools were socially divisive, they were an excellent way for the brightest of the country's children, without rich mummies and daddies, to receive an education suitable to their needs.

[Manoverboard]

Grammar schools of the fifties were, in my own experience, certainly socially divisive and they also failed to get the best out of many of those, including myself, who bucked the trend and gained entry from humble beginings.

We had gowned Masters who looked down their noses at those of us who came from the Council Estates, doing everything possible to try to find fault and to put us down ... not all but too many.

I was successful in life but owe very little to the education I missed in that place.

[oldbluefox]

It certainly used to be more difficult to get ahead if you came from the wrong side of town or you came from a non-professional family. There was a certain bias towards the more privileged and a tendency to ignore the rest as long as you didn't create waves. However in my case it only went to make me work hard and more determined to break through which has not only been a useful ploy throughout my life but also makes me very defensive when I come across arrogance, pomposity or condescension. I applaud all those who have managed to better themselves from humble beginnings.

Of course excellence should not only be rewarded but should be encouraged too. Children should be challenged and stretched (sometimes literally!!) but very often too many excuses are made by their parents who give little support to their talented offspring.

As an aside I disagree with Blair's ideal of 50% going to university, which was totally impractical. I would make university education free and only open up places to the most academic, possibly in the region of 5% but also open up more opportunities in vocational training, hopefully linked to apprenticeships. This would eliminate wastage on studying for worthless degrees which have limited value.

[Not so ancient mariner]

As the late great W.S.Gilbert put it. "When everybody's somebody, then no one's anybody"

[Dark Knight]

John
totally disagree, my dad was a miner, my Mum a PA, so not exactly rolling in cash, but they worked hard to see my sibling got the best education they could afford
I found school restrictive and did not perform well but made up for it once I got into the real world, luckily my former employer was happy to put me through Uni, which my parents couldn't afford for a second time,

why should everything be free? where is the challenge, where is the drive, when it is handed on a plate, that's the problem with this country, everyone wants it on a plate and moans when they are told to put some effort in, tough, invest in your own future, then you might work at it

[david63]

There is a difference between "free" education and achieving something within the education system.

You can have free university places for everyone that wants them but it is up to the individual to do the work necessary to gain a degree - unless the bar is so low that everyone gets one.

[ChesterfieldJohn]

John
totally disagree, my dad was a miner, my Mum a PA, so not exactly rolling in cash, but they worked hard to see my sibling got the best education they could afford
I found school restrictive and did not perform well but made up for it once I got into the real world, luckily my former employer was happy to put me through Uni, which my parents couldn't afford for a second time,

why should everything be free? where is the challenge, where is the drive, when it is handed on a plate, that's the problem with this country, everyone wants it on a plate and moans when they are told to put some effort in, tough, invest in your own future, then you might work at it

Handed on a plate? Its the opportunity to attend that is handed to them, as it was me, you still have to work to obtain the qualifications.
It was your choice what you did at school.

As you said you were fortunate your employee paid for your university. What is the difference between that and the state paying?
It was free to yoiu.

Its still paid by someone not in your family.

John