Should excellence be rewarded?

[Dark Knight]

John
the difference was my employer said ,in no uncertain terms that if I failed any part of the course then the cost was coming out of my wages and they meant it
so there is the incentive to do well and work hard
if it is free to all then there will be those who abuse the system and then blame someone else like they normally do when they are either too lazy or too stupid to work hard and succeed

[Ian Perth]

Oldbluefox has this spot on, totally agree with comments.

[ChesterfieldJohn]

Wether it is free or you have to pay for it there will always be those who abuse the system, your company may have paid, but probably claimed most of
it back in tax relief.
I believe that most of the ons who waste their opportunity at University are the ones who have had everything through life because their parents were able to give them everything they requested.

The ones whose parents were unable to do this work harder in order to improve there selves.

Look at the people in charge of this country who had everything handed to them on a plate they are proof enough.
On my daughters course at Sheffield Uni 3 people dropped out, all 3 were from wealthy families.


John

[Manoverboard]

Students can drop out because they discover the subject does not motivate them enough, a year later they go back to do sonething else, albeit related, and do very well ... regardless of background.

[ChesterfieldJohn]

Students can drop out because they discover the subject does not motivate them enough, a year later they go back to do sonething else, albeit related, and do very well ... regardless of background.

Or it is to much like hard work and go back for an easier one like media studies.

John

[HK phooey]

Ken, I completely agree with your initial thoughts - not sure why this has now become a debate about university education though. If I were to take my youngest two out of the state deducation system and put them into a private school (and yes, I would abandon previous 'principles' and do it like a shot), I would need to find thousands per term for each of them. We don't have thousands a year to chuck at private education but I would love to see the return of the grammar school.

[oldbluefox]

The great advantage private schools have over state schools is a) they can be selective so they have a headstart in being successful and b) classes are smaller so more time may be spent on individual children. Because of the paying element many activities may be laid on which would be too expensive for state schools. Comparing state schools with private schools is like comparing chalk and cheese. It's just a pity our political leaders have yet to fathom that one out.

However if any child has the support of its parents, pre-school and throughout their studying life they should succeed. I just wish we would develop the strengths of our children whether they be artistic, academic, sporty, technical etc and guide them into courses and work which will set them up for life. Sending all children off to university is not the answer, and an expensive waste of money, but I do believe we need to be selective at some stage (maybe at 14) in order to tailor the right courses for different cohorts of children.

Should excellence be rewarded? If it means kids finding the right slot in life, a job which is fulfulling and a promising career ahead of them then what more could they ask? As for children from privileged backgrounds, they will always succeed because they have daddy's contacts and daddy's business they can slot into. They live in an alter world so not worth worrying about.

[oldbluefox]

HK if you are helping and supporting your children in all they do why do you necessarily need private education? I would hazard a guess they get plenty of support and guidance without the need for private schooling. I owe a great debt of gratitude to my parents, who although poor, pushed me hard throughout my schooling days.

I read today of two ex-pupils, now 30 who have been jailed for conning old people out of money. One came from a family of ne'er-do-wells, mum and dad had been in and out of prison and he was left to roam the streets till all hours of day or night getting into mischief. The other one also came from a family of jailbirds, mum was alcoholic, dad now off the scene and both he and his younger sister were often both left at school until 6.30/7.00 as mum was so out of her head on alcohol she had forgotten to pick the poor souls up. It annoys me what they did but saddens me to think they didn't stand a chance in life. Left to their own devices, as they were and without anybody to keep them on the straight and narrow they didn't stand a chance.

[HK phooey]

Foxy, I would opt for private education if possible purely because of the frustration and exasperation of dealing with the narrow mindedness, poor teaching and bias towards those pupils deemed to have 'special educational needs' in the state school system. One example- five years ago when our eldest made his university applications, (he was at a comprehensive in Essex) he was told that an Oxbridge application was a wasted application, pupils from his school would not 'fit in' and were not up to scratch. They did everything they could to block his application, even refusing to sign his reference - we literally stood over his head of 6th form and made him sign it, then had to drive over to Cambridge to hand it in as the school had delayed so long that he would have missed the deadline.

[Gill W]

I think, the thing with education is, the raw material has got to be there in the first place, i.e. the children need to be bright and willing to learn.

My friends spent thousands on their son's private education. I imagine the hope is, armed with a private education the child will have advantages in life the state educated child couldn't dream of, and will forge ahead in any chosen career.

My friends son is a nice chap..... but he's frankly a bit of a drifter, and has never established himself in a career, instead moved from one low paid job to another. I have no idea if my friends feel 'smug' ( to coin a phrase that was used earlier in the thread) or whether they feel they wasted their money. But it shows even private education can't make silk out of a sows ear.

HK, re Essex comprehensives. I lived in Essex until I was 21, and Essex switched to the comprehensive system in 1971, the year I was 11. So I didn't take the 11 plus, and was part of the first intake of the comprehensive system. Once we were in the school, we were placed into streams, and the top two classes were stuffed with bright kids. I think we were the poster children for the comprehensive system. We achieved an impressive amount of O levels between us, most went on to do A levels, and many went to University, including one to Oxford. In later years, many were high achievers in their chosen careers, including high flyers in the professions and a lead violin in an orchestra.

We did all that without a private education - cream will rise to the top wherever it's educated!

[towny44]

Grammar schools of the fifties were, in my own experience, certainly socially divisive and they also failed to get the best out of many of those, including myself, who bucked the trend and gained entry from humble beginings.

We had gowned Masters who looked down their noses at those of us who came from the Council Estates, doing everything possible to try to find fault and to put us down ... not all but too many.

I was successful in life but owe very little to the education I missed in that place.

Moby, I have exactly the opposite view to you, I also came from humble beginnings but passed the 11 plus exam and went to a grammar school. Yes we also had gowned masters but I don't remember being looked down upon, except by a french master who was a true snob. I left at 16 with only 4 GCE's but despite such mediocre exam results I also think I succeeded in life and work, but I firmly believe that it was because of the grammar school education, without it I doubt I would have been as successful.
In my opinion the decision to scrap grammar schools and create comprehensives was a disaster, grammars were not of themselves devisive, in fact they were the main conduit for working class children to attend university. Rather than scrapping them the department of education should have used them as a template for improving the standard of secondary modern schools.

[Boris+]

I am speaking simply from personal experience - the question was asked why should people go to private education ...? The answer is that in the private sector they seem to try a little harder - afterall, a pupil can easily move from one school to another, whereas in the state sector I don't know if it is all that easy.

We did the private education route, and whilst we found it hard (especially when we got into the boarding school system etc)., we are just glad that we did.

We knew that the teachers felt that the school day wasn't over just because the final afternoon bell had rung - if some extra effort was needed, then it happened.

The Oxbridge thing - well what we went through was a situation where we felt after substantial research that there was one particular uni which was better, and so there was all hell let loose when our daughter decided that she wasn't going to put her Oxbridge offer at the top of her list.

If I had to go through it all again, I would still pay.

Em

[The Tinker]

Interesting topic but Boris - surely it should have been your daughter's choice of which uni she wanted to go to?
I have no problem in you educating and paying for her up to sixth form but as an adult I think she should start to make her own choices in life.
My daughter went to a state school and then chose to go to university and gained a first class honours degree. She also got married in her final year and made many sacrifices to be able to do this.
She now has a very highly paid job and has got her foot on the property ladder - all done through her own ambition and not because we told her to.

[Boris+]

Hi Tinker,

She did have her own way, and with our blessing. Headmistress wanted one thing, we wanted another thing. We had long talks with daughter and with a bit of team work and a following wind she had her first choice of university. Headmistress didn't like it at all, neither did she like what we told her!

Our daughter was exceptionally happy, and did very well in all her degrees - and has used her qualifications in the relevant field and is a very happy bunny.

Em

[Dark Knight]

as a slight aside
what is the point of all the test kids go through. if the top 5-10% are not given the best education, as long as they want it and perform well and given every possible leg up to ensure the country prospers as a result

[towny44]

as a slight aside
what is the point of all the test kids go through. if the top 5-10% are not given the best education, as long as they want it and perform well and given every possible leg up to ensure the country prospers as a result

I'm not sure I understand the point you are making here DK?

[Manoverboard]

... I was successful in life but owe very little to the education I missed in that place.

Moby, I have exactly the opposite view to you, I also came from humble beginnings but passed the 11 plus exam and went to a grammar school. Yes we also had gowned masters but I don't remember being looked down upon, except by a french master who was a true snob. I left at 16 with only 4 GCE's but despite such mediocre exam results I also think I succeeded in life and work, but I firmly believe that it was because of the grammar school education, without it I doubt I would have been as successful ...

Fair points,

I would have to conceed that my Grammer School taught us how to pass exams and that the success or otherwise was down in part to ability and effort. Also that doors were probably opened for interview as a direct consequence of attending that school and my own exam results.

However ... I do genuinely believe that they did absolutely nothing whatsoever to motivate me to develop any of the skills that I undoubtedly had and were to serve me so well in later years. In this regard it was a failed education as far as I am concerned, perhaps it was the process rather than the school.

[Mo2013]

Chesterfield John wrote "Whilst I agree about the schooling it will never happen in this country, the best schools and universities prefer to take the money people over the average Joe."

Before I retired I worked in one of the country's top universities which belonged to the elite Russell Group of universities. It accepted those students who'd achieved the best grades so it wasn't because of money.

[HK phooey]

I sometimes get the impression that in Britain we are forever trying to dumb society down to the level of the lowest common denominator ... so that we can claim an all inclusive society. If someone is rewarded there is usually someone willing to stand up and complain about elitism etc.

I personally think we should be doing more to promote the very best in our society and providing them with additional funds and elite schooling based on academic excellence.

Ken's original post was, to my understanding, referring to the children in our state school system, not those who have the advantage of a private education. I imagine a child would have to be pretty thick not to do well with all the advantages of a private education. Yes Ken, academic excellence should be rewarded in our schools. There is a gifted and talented programme in place, has been for many years, but it means very little in reality.
Darknight, the many, many tests are for the purpose of league tables and Ofsted scores.

[Mo2013]

Excellence at school should be nurtured and rewarded. The brightest children should not be held down to a common level. However, we must get the very best out of ALL children and ensure that they reach their full potential.

[Dark Knight]

my point for those who went to a comprehensive rather than a private school

it should be an easy task to find the top 5 or 10% of children who are the best and brightest, so given that they are found, should those who wish to ,not be given every opportunity to excel and go as far as they wish academically with the full backing of the state?

this way we can encourage pride in our children and help them to fulfil their potential to the benefit of themselves and the country ,when the go out into the real world and get jobs

or simply put pay for the clever ones to have a university education regardless of perceived social status

also it may be a good idea for people to stop harping on about class etc and focus on children with ability not money

only my opinion comrades

[wolfie]

The top 5 to 10 % were found years ago, it was called the 11+. I, one of the many, succeeded via this system.