Sick society

[oldbluefox]

We were only saying the other day that the pendulum has swung too far. As I reported on another topic we had been to see Top Hat and we commented that in days gone by you went to the cinema and you came out feeling good, feeling happy and that you had had a positive experience. Compare that with many films and TV programmes today which display blood and gore, where sex is totally explicit and bad language gratuitous. And with the advent of videos and the watershed young children are seeing things they should never be exposed to, from a very early age. Is it hardly surprising that young people grow up with a distorted view of the world and whilst I do not agree we have made it happen I do agree we have allowed it to happen. Personally I lay much of the blame at the door of the media, whom I believe have far too much influence on what we see and are exposed to 'in the public interest'. Of course it has nothing to do with 'public interest' but more to do with boosting viewing ratings to attract advertising revenue.

Somewhere along the line the trend needs to be reversed so that we experience a feel-good factor, where children can grow up as children and be treated as children.
I could go on further about dressing children inappropriately, exposure to inappropriate material in 'childrens' magazines, make up etc but I think I have said enough!!

Considering what we have allowed to be created is it little wonder we see the depravity as displayed by this couple? It will be interesting to see what reasons are trotted out for their behaviour but whatever they are does not justify what happened to this poor little mite.

[Mo2013]

David, I do not know Ken's age, but I am pretty sure that I am much older than he is. In any case, I do not accept any responsibility for the way society is a whole for I know I brought my children up properly to have respect and manners, and my grandchildren are also being brought up properly. I have not wanted to watch ever more violent films, I am not the one subscribing to them or paying to see them in a cinema. I am not a person who wants to see sex etc. on tv or wants to watch music videos of half-clothed women or anything else you can think of that has made society what it has become. No, it is with others the responsibility lies.

[david63]

That Mo is called Pontius Pilate syndrome

[Mo2013]

That Mo is called Pontius Pilate syndrome

Whatever David. You will not change my mind, and I will not be browbeaten, even though you are picking holes in (just) my posts.

[Frank Manning]

I agree Mo, you cannot be expected to take responsibility for the way Society is, not now or in the past. Society is complex, probably too complex for analysis by the likes of us, but not everyone has subscribed to the gradual erosion of moral standards, and by moral I mean it in the broadest sense. There is hypocrisy all around us for sure, but unless we are actively guilty of taking part in these things or of tacitly supporting them then we are surely not guilty of them. Pontius Pilate or not.

We certainly should not feel guilty ourselves; they are abhorrent to us, and we have every right to say so.

[suespud]

I agree with Ken.
It is our fault, collectively as a generation/s that things have got this bad.
WE..again ALL of us should have done more...earlier.
Its no good saying that "well I brought my kids up well"
WE ALL have to take the blame that the way the world is, is all OUR doing.

Having said all that, Im not sure exactly what we SHOULD have done to stop it.

[Serendipity]

I have read this with interest and I agree with Suespud what could we have done ?
Times change and sometimes not for the better, when I was growing up my Gran used to always be saying 'things are not what they were in my day' I am talking 50 or so years ago.
I do disagree with the Monocled Mutineer, these people if convicted of sexually abusing and neglecting this child, then they lost all their human rights the moment they committed these sinful acts on this child. A child should be treasured not tortured.
I really do not care what fellow inmates inflict on them.

[Mo2013]

I agree Mo, you cannot be expected to take responsibility for the way Society is, not now or in the past. Society is complex, probably too complex for analysis by the likes of us, but not everyone has subscribed to the gradual erosion of moral standards, and by moral I mean it in the broadest sense. There is hypocrisy all around us for sure, but unless we are actively guilty of taking part in these things or of tacitly supporting them then we are surely not guilty of them. Pontius Pilate or not.

We certainly should not feel guilty ourselves; they are abhorrent to us, and we have every right to say so.

Succinctly and eloquently put and I agree wholeheartedly.

[Mo2013]

What could anyone have done? You have to look at society and its problems and drill down until you can pin each thing on something i.e. bad parenting, giving kids too much, too soon, kids growing up too quickly, being greedy, making sex the be all everywhere you look. I know that I am not guilty of anything that has contributed to society's current ills.

[Mo2013]

"I really do not care what fellow inmates inflict on them."

Whilst it is understandable that people will agree with this statement, relishing the idea of savagery being inflicted upon even these people makes those who wish it more savage than they would care to admit?

[Serendipity]

Where did I say I would relish it ?
I really do not care what is inflicted on them that is the difference Mo2013.

[Stephen]

String'm up............with rusty barbed wire. I won't say where from

[Mo2013]

Where did I say I would relish it ?
I really do not care what is inflicted on them that is the difference Mo2013.

Serendipity, semantics. I did not refer to you specifically. I am not wrong when I conclude that some people would relish these people being subjected to unknown violence.

[Serendipity]

"I really do not care what fellow inmates inflict on them."

Whilst it is understandable that people will agree with this statement, relishing the idea of savagery being inflicted upon even these people makes those who wish it more savage than they would care to admit?

So why did you quote me ?

[Mo2013]

Apologies Serendipity - my mistake. However, my view remains the same.

[Delboy]

If we as individuals accept that we are part of society, but cannot accept our share in society's decline, then who exactly who is to blame.

This to me is part of the problem, nobody is prepared to accept they have anything to do with societies decline, its always somebody else's fault, and as a result we end up with nothing being done about it, and it drops further into decline.

The things people put up with in this generation and are part and parcel of everyday life, are in general down mostly to apathy on the part of all of us.

But then on the other hand there is that part of society, who think society's values are simply evolving, not deteriorating. Old people, mostly, think that society's values are deteriorating, because they're used to how it used to be, back in the day. Each person's definition of values differs.

[suespud]

Great post Derek!!

[emjay45]

I agree Mo, you cannot be expected to take responsibility for the way Society is, not now or in the past. Society is complex, probably too complex for analysis by the likes of us, but not everyone has subscribed to the gradual erosion of moral standards, and by moral I mean it in the broadest sense. There is hypocrisy all around us for sure, but unless we are actively guilty of taking part in these things or of tacitly supporting them then we are surely not guilty of them. Pontius Pilate or not.

We certainly should not feel guilty ourselves; they are abhorrent to us, and we have every right to say so.

Succinctly and eloquently put and I agree wholeheartedly.

I agree with Mo and Frank. What could I do? I did my part by bringing MY children up with standards and morals. I certainly don't hold myself responsible for other people's lack of moral values. If I could have prevented the way society has declined believe me I would have.

[Frank Manning]

I dont see Society as being homogenous. UK society is affected by the many sub cultures of all kinds which constitute the whole. Indeed that is what makes it so diverse, and in many ways colourful. Some sub cultures will be involved in practises and behaviours which others find unacceptable, and as has been said some with vested interests and that includes the media, advertisers, etc., will seek to subtley promote such practises and behaviours as acceptable in order to gain in some way. These are the hypocrites who will then scream banner headlines deploring behaviour when they realise that it has gone to far. If it goes on for long enough and they influence enough then there becomes a more general relaxation of standards. That does not mean that all of the sub cultures accepted the influences, or are themselves contributing to any spread of those influences, and often those cultures with an alternative view, who resisted the changes seem to come under ridicule. Sorry Derek but you cant label them as part of the problem. They are resisting, and they dont accept that they are responsible.

Any way its getting off the point which is that some behaviours are unacceptable, and those of us who find them unacceptable will not be convinced that we are part of the problem.

[Dark Knight]

If nobody is responsible for society's, then what is the problem?

I cannot believe that people on here are unwilling accept they are responsible for the way our society is, anyone who has voted for or not voted for any government, has some degree of responsibility
even it is as obscure as voting in a government that may have relaxed certain laws, abolished laws or changed the way the country is run, you are responsible in part for that

to try to distance yourself and claim the moral high ground is self centred naivety of the worst sort

[emjay45]

Again I agree with Frank.We both have first-hand knowledge of what life was like in this country after the Second World War. I have seen the slow deterioration down to the level we are now at. I blame the media, woolly liberals, left wing employees of social services, and a too soft judiciary. How many times in the eighties did we hear these people bleating about how we can’t blame this one or that one because they’d had a tough life. How many times did I watch a television discussion programme where a mother with 9 children by 9 different fathers tell us it was HER right to do this and the government should pay for them all. In the 70’s and 80’s the audience would applaud her. They wouldn’t now but it’s too late. I may have voted but I didn’t vote for life the way it is now. No I’m not to blame, all of the aforementioned are to blame and I just watched it happen while I became more and more angry and felt more and more hopeless. I will never accept any blame and I am not self-centred or naive. It has never been within my power to change anything.

[Frank Manning]

There is no such thing as a homogenous society. Adolf Hitler Chairman Mao, and Joe Stalin tried to create homogenous societies, and to a large extent failed. 60 million people? 60 million different motivations, needs, personalities, skills, intellects. There will be many many cultural sub sets, but please dont try to tell me that one sub set is responsible for the behaviour of another, or that there is a one size society fits all, it just doesn't wash. Societys ills cannot be laid at the door of any one person. A large and prominent culture within society can just make it seem as though they represent society, but that culture cannot be representative of us all. Not Emjay, or Mo, or me.

[oldbluefox]

I'm with you emjay and lay the blame in exactly the same areas viz the media, woolly liberals, left wing employees of social services, and a too soft judiciary. To be honest I feel the media have far too much control over what we must think and what we must do. We have been told we have to move with the times, to be modern'trendy and liberal, to accept dumbing down of standards of decency and these are some of the consequences of those attitudes. How can I be held to blame for things which happened over which I had no control and to which I was vehemently opposed?

[The Monocled Mutineer]

Serendipity:

You disagreed (as I am sure most others) with my view. However, in my view the last thing we should allow is the complete suspension of humans rights for ANYONE. True justice must follow due process. Such justice protects us all including Universal Base Human Rights. When base human rights are suspended we end up with the horrors of state sanctioned violence against its people and the rule of the mob including the violation of babies, children and adults in all senses of the word violation, as occurs in Egypt, Syria, North Korea,Red China and many other pariah states.

It is not for prisoners, who themselves have violated society to a lesser or greater degree, to redeem themselves ( in the eyes of the saloon bar / tabloid mob) by committing serious criminal acts against other prisoners, but when these things do happen, the judicial process should apply to these convicts too and extended long sentences applied depending on the seriousness of the "revenge" crime committed.

[Kendhni]

There is no such thing as a homogenous society. Adolf Hitler Chairman Mao, and Joe Stalin tried to create homogenous societies, and to a large extent failed. 60 million people? 60 million different motivations, needs, personalities, skills, intellects. There will be many many cultural sub sets, but please dont try to tell me that one sub set is responsible for the behaviour of another, or that there is a one size society fits all, it just doesn't wash. Societys ills cannot be laid at the door of any one person. A large and prominent culture within society can just make it seem as though they represent society, but that culture cannot be representative of us all.

I think if we go back to the starting point of this part of the discussion I think you will find that the words I used were 'we (collectively)' ... there was no attempt to lay blame 'at the door of any one person'. There have been whole books written on this subject and naturally they can not be done justice in a few simple posts, but to try to explain some of the more simpler elements ...

If you have voted in an election, then you will have contributed to the government (or the opposition) who make our laws (or provide amendments/water them down). That may have contributed to the betterment or destruction of wider society.

If you have seen a crime being committed and done nothing, or all you have managed to do when you hear about something is 'yuy-tut' and then carry on .. you have contributed to an acceptance that there is an acceptable level of crime.

If you have done 31mph in a 30 zone then you have contributed to the concept that some laws are just for everybody else and it is OK to bend them when it suits us.

If you smacked your children then you taught them that violence is an acceptable solution to some problems.

If you have borrowed money to buy something then you contributed to the selfish me-me-me society that has to have everything there and then.

If you have bragged about your child doing well then that may have introduced negativity into somebody else's life .. which may manifest itself in various ways. Worse still are those that see no wrong in their children and therefore actually condone some of the actions they do *that others condemn).

If you successfully got a job then it is probable that you denied someone else that job ... what if not getting the job knocked someone back so hard that it resigned them to a life on the dole or of crime (I know someone this happened to).

None of the above are deliberate or wilful.
The ONLY people responsible for today's society are previous generations and today's generation(s) .. there is nobody else to blame all the above demonstrate ways that the vast majority of people make tiny little impacts on society ... the only ones who do not are those that have led worthless meaningless lives ... EVERYBODY else will have contributed to both the good and bad sides of the society that we have created and will leave to the next generation(s). If you ask people the vast majority will claim that they have had a positive influence on society, but everybody has skeletons in their closet that will have been negative ... a lot of people will claim they got it right, but only by their own definition, a less biased opinion would see the papered over cracks.

Two of the biggest sins in modern society are denial and delusion ... something we all suffer from, when it suits us.