Sick society

[The Monocled Mutineer]

Ken:

I would have thought that even those who lead a worthless meaningless life have contributed to society in one way or other (good or bad) following the logic of your interesting viewpoint.

[david63]

It is not for prisoners, who themselves have violated society to a lesser or greater degree, to redeem themselves ( in the eyes of the saloon bar / tabloid mob) by committing serious criminal acts against other prisoners, but when these things do happen, the judicial process should apply to these convicts too and extended long sentences applied depending on the seriousness of the "revenge" crime committed.

The point here is Derek that there are some prisoners, and some non prisoners, who know full well what the consequences of such actions will be and are prepared to accept the punishment, no matter what it is. Also within the prison community they will, rightly or wrongly, become "heroes".

[Kendhni]

Ken:

I would have thought that even those who lead a worthless meaningless life have contributed to society in one way or other (good or bad) following the logic of your interesting viewpoint.

That is my point Derek, whether or not we like it, society is what we (collectively) have made it ... both the good and the bad ... it is wrong for anybody to believe that they have only ever contributed to the good parts because that means a self centred consideration totally ignoring the impact of their actions on others.

I do not believe it is possible for anybody to be so worthless or meaningless as to not have contributed to society ... but did not want to rule it out as a possibility (no matter how remote).

[Kendhni]

It is not for prisoners, who themselves have violated society to a lesser or greater degree, to redeem themselves ( in the eyes of the saloon bar / tabloid mob) by committing serious criminal acts against other prisoners, but when these things do happen, the judicial process should apply to these convicts too and extended long sentences applied depending on the seriousness of the "revenge" crime committed.

The point here is Derek that there are some prisoners, and some non prisoners, who know full well what the consequences of such actions will be and are prepared to accept the punishment, no matter what it is. Also within the prison community they will, rightly or wrongly, become "heroes".

.. and to follow on there are some people so used to the prison lifestyle that they can not function on the outside and therefore are happy to commit further crimes simply to be returned to the 'comfort' of prison.

There is a ctually an interesting proposal on the table at the minute ... we should not be sending people who have committed lesser crimes to prison .. only those that commit serious crime. That means that burglars, muggers and others would receive non-custodial sentences ... there would also be no incentive to pay fines etc..

[david63]

The points that you make Ken about our collective contribution to the formulation of our present day, and future, society are, in my opinion, valid - however this is very much a case of "isn't hindsight a wonderful thing". We can all see what has gone wrong, and in some cases where it has gone wrong, but I suspect that there are very few of us, if any, that could have been able to say at the time that this is wrong and we should not do it.

[Kendhni]

I agree totally about hindsight, David.
The analogy that I once read is that it is like something moving a millimetre every day .. nobody notices ... then one day 3 years later you sit up and notice that it has moved over a metre from its original position and wonder 'how the hell did it get there'.

In real life one of the big issues is that we started off with charity whereby someone was grateful for help they received .. then we went to welfare (for which people were grateful) ... then it became a benefits system ... last decade it became an 'entitlement' (absolutely no gratitude, just an expectation). It is a different conversation but what we see is that a good idea has been eroded to the point of being partially destructive to society.

[emjay45]

There is no such thing as a homogenous society. Adolf Hitler Chairman Mao, and Joe Stalin tried to create homogenous societies, and to a large extent failed. 60 million people? 60 million different motivations, needs, personalities, skills, intellects. There will be many many cultural sub sets, but please dont try to tell me that one sub set is responsible for the behaviour of another, or that there is a one size society fits all, it just doesn't wash. Societys ills cannot be laid at the door of any one person. A large and prominent culture within society can just make it seem as though they represent society, but that culture cannot be representative of us all.

I think if we go back to the starting point of this part of the discussion I think you will find that the words I used were 'we (collectively)' ... there was no attempt to lay blame 'at the door of any one person'. There have been whole books written on this subject and naturally they can not be done justice in a few simple posts, but to try to explain some of the more simpler elements ...

If you have voted in an election, then you will have contributed to the government (or the opposition) who make our laws (or provide amendments/water them down). That may have contributed to the betterment or destruction of wider society.

If you have seen a crime being committed and done nothing, or all you have managed to do when you hear about something is 'yuy-tut' and then carry on .. you have contributed to an acceptance that there is an acceptable level of crime.

If you have done 31mph in a 30 zone then you have contributed to the concept that some laws are just for everybody else and it is OK to bend them when it suits us.

If you smacked your children then you taught them that violence is an acceptable solution to some problems.

If you have borrowed money to buy something then you contributed to the selfish me-me-me society that has to have everything there and then.

If you have bragged about your child doing well then that may have introduced negativity into somebody else's life .. which may manifest itself in various ways. Worse still are those that see no wrong in their children and therefore actually condone some of the actions they do *that others condemn).

If you successfully got a job then it is probable that you denied someone else that job ... what if not getting the job knocked someone back so hard that it resigned them to a life on the dole or of crime (I know someone this happened to).

None of the above are deliberate or wilful.
The ONLY people responsible for today's society are previous generations and today's generation(s) .. there is nobody else to blame all the above demonstrate ways that the vast majority of people make tiny little impacts on society ... the only ones who do not are those that have led worthless meaningless lives ... EVERYBODY else will have contributed to both the good and bad sides of the society that we have created and will leave to the next generation(s). If you ask people the vast majority will claim that they have had a positive influence on society, but everybody has skeletons in their closet that will have been negative ... a lot of people will claim they got it right, but only by their own definition, a less biased opinion would see the papered over cracks.

Two of the biggest sins in modern society are denial and delusion ... something we all suffer from, when it suits us.

Ken I think you are oversimplifying where the country as a whole has gone wrong. I don't agree with your reasoning at all. I think we have ended up with the society we have because of bad decisions made by people who had the power to change things not by the ordinary person in the street.
Let's just say that if we are ALL guilty then some are more guilty than others.

[Kendhni]

Ken I think you are oversimplifying where the country as a whole has gone wrong. I don't agree with your reasoning at all. I think we have ended up with the society we have because of bad decisions made by people who had the power to change things not by the ordinary person in the street.
Let's just say that if we are ALL guilty then some are more guilty than others.

The question though is are we in the habit of over complicating and not stripping the problems back to bare bones .. we can put the blame on our elected leaders but I would suggest that falls into the same realm of (e.g.) passenger surveys ... whenever a change comes about it is often as a response to public opinion .. the problem is we all have different opinions, but as is often the case it is the vociferous minority who often get what they asked for (which is not necessarily what they wanted .. two different things).

I agree that some are more guilty than others of both the good and the bad ... we all contribute different proportions to BOTH.