Syria

[Boris+]

Hi John,

That's mighty kind of you - and thankyou most sincerely.

Em

[Frank Manning]

Good to see that parliament is reigning in the crazy ideas of some of our leaders regarding Syria. They are possibly concerned about public reaction and well they might be. I admired John Denham (Labour)for resigning over the Iraq debacle, and here he is today very eloquently saying that parliament doesn't have the evidence from Iraq yet, and has not thought through the end game.

Bit disappointed in Cameron tonight, I guess the hot line from the White House has got at him. Just as it got at Blair.

[Silver_Shiney]

Good to see that parliament is reigning in the crazy ideas of some of our leaders regarding Syria. They are possibly concerned about public reaction and well they might be. I admired John Denham (Labour)for resigning over the Iraq debacle, and here he is today very eloquently saying that parliament doesn't have the evidence from Iraq yet, and has not thought through the end game.

Bit disappointed in Cameron tonight, I guess the hot line from the White House has got at him. Just as it got at Blair.

Yes, hopefully saner heads will rule the day.

[Kendhni]

Bit disappointed in Cameron tonight, I guess the hot line from the White House has got at him. Just as it got at Blair.

I am more disappointed in Millibrain, a few days ago I remember him siding a lot closer with Cameron and talking about a united front ... it looks like Ed caved in like a deck of cards made out of tissue paper due to whatever opinions he decided to listen to.

Having said that I think it is right to wait to see what the UN inspectors have to say rather than go to war on a pack of lies (like Blair did).

[Silver_Shiney]

So, wiser heads have ruled the day.

I understand that the proof that regime launched this attack came from an intercepted phone call, in which a top military commander shouted the question "who authorised it?" That indicates only that he himself was not aware of it. The attack could have been launched by a more junior leader of his own back and the person whose call was intercepted was angry about orders being broken; he could have been asking which side (regime or rebel) launched it.... it does NOT constitute proof that Assad "pressed the button".

I seem to recall hearing the other day that Turkey was planning some sort of military action. Fine, it's on their border and there's a danger that CW could waft over to the Turks. The League of Arab Nations are in hand-wringing mode. Again, fine, let them deal with it.

We do not have the resources any more, and we are not the world's policeman. Something needs to be done, sure, and the perpetrators need to be brought to justice. Where are Russia and China in all this? I should have thought that, if it was the rebels who were using CW, Assad's allies would be offering to step in and help.

Sorry, I'm rambling. It's too early in the morning.

[The Monocled Mutineer]

A shameful day.

Even without the use of chemical weapon about 100,000 have been killed in this squalid war.

Our Parliament by a slender margin, bowing to public opinion, have made by a small degree the work of the US and her gallant allies just that bit harder and given comfort to every tin pot regime that will do anything to their own people, just so they can hold onto power.

Open season now ...

[Kendhni]

A shameful day.

Even without the use of chemical weapon about 100,000 have been killed in this squalid war.

Our Parliament by a slender margin, bowing to public opinion, have made by a small degree the work of the US and her gallant allies just that bit harder and given comfort to every tin pot regime that will do anything to their own people, just so they can hold onto power.

Open season now ...

Earlier in the thread there was criticism of another poster who was more concerned about their cruise .. why not ... that is little different to the wider public opinion that basically is more concerned about their own peaceful little lives than the mass slaughter of people they don't know or care about ... why should they care about their plight when 'public opinion is more concerned that they have dinner to make, gardens to mow, shopping to get in, holidays to go on and whether or not they will get their 'entitlement' if we have to pay for another war.

That is not a criticism, that is just the reality of life ... out of site out of mind .. a quick 'oh dear me, isn't that awful, never mind, what's for dinner?' All the mock outrage just because someone mentioned a cruise was nothing more than attempting to take a hypocritical moral highground .. public opinion in the UK is fueled purely by selfishness often using sound bites from the media that has told its loyal flock what they should think.


BTW, I think they should create a no fly zone for all Syrian military aircraft ... especially since they have allegedly been seen dropping napalm-like bombs in the middle of a busy children's playgrounds.

[david63]

I thought that MPs were supposed to represent the views of their constituents. Now if, as it seems, public opinion is split over this issue then the public views were well represented last night.

This is very much a case for MPs of being dammed if you do and dammed if you don't - whatever the outcome they would be criticised by those with the opposing view.

[Silver_Shiney]

I agree with Ken's notion of a no-fly zone.

David has also hit the nail on the head.

If Assad is removed from power, will the rebels form a fair, democratic government? From what I've seen, they're Islamic and therefore enemies of the West and, particularly, Israel. It is a tense, dangerous situation and the world cannot afford any more blunders like Iraq and Libya.

If it is 100% certain that Assad launch this heinious attack, then military action should be taken. However, as I said earlier, we are not the world's policeman and we do not have the resources. Our military started being dismantled by Mrs Thatcher and now there's hardly anything left.

[The Monocled Mutineer]

Ken:

Your BTW:

Agreed. The UK Parliament's vote makes this a tad more difficult now for the US and her gallant allies with the facilities the UK could have offered from our Navy and RAF including the use of our Sovereign bases in Cyprus. Hopefully Turkey and Israel may help to gap-fill, as they have interests in the region notwithstanding the horror they must share with all liberal democracies about the despicable actions of the Assad Ba'athist regime.

[oldbluefox]

Any intervention in the Syrian crisis should be multilateral and include Arab League nations thereby avoiding a West (the enemy) versus Muslims scenario. SS is absolutely right in saying we are not the world's policeman and following on from another point made earlier what would be our reaction had Russia or China used CW? For that matter what are we doing about violations of human rights in China or the Chinese violations in Tibet? Are we in danger here of being seen as bully boys?

I also question the idea that UK is a world power. Maybe we were.

[Kendhni]

Having just visited several other boards I see the brain-dead public opinion is often swayed by the words 'Austerity' and 'We are in this together' .. usually presented with equal measures of sarcasm (and uncaring). If Britiain is not going to be involved militarially you can be assured that she will put together a multi-million/billion pound aid package, therefore the overall cost will still be there.

[Manoverboard]

... you can be assured that she will put together a multi-million/billion pound aid package, therefore the overall cost will still be there.

The ' total ' cost with humanitarean aid will not however result in the loss of life.

I have genuine sympathy for the plight of these people but in all honesty I have a greater conviction that if we have millions/billions to spare then better uses are identifiable here in the UK.

[Kendhni]

I thought that MPs were supposed to represent the views of their constituents. Now if, as it seems, public opinion is split over this issue then the public views were well represented last night.

This is very much a case for MPs of being dammed if you do and dammed if you don't - whatever the outcome they would be criticised by those with the opposing view.

While I agree, the problem is that the public is generally reacting from selfish interest and being ill-informed.
It is likely that members of the government will have much more information at hand.

[Kendhni]

... you can be assured that she will put together a multi-million/billion pound aid package, therefore the overall cost will still be there.

The ' total ' cost with humanitarean aid will not however result in the loss of life.

Are we putting a hierarchy on whose lives become important? I know you aren't but that is how that could be construed.

There will be loss of live ... thousands more being bombed, torched, tortured, murdered, gassed, dying from starvation etc. ... also our aid workers/troops delivering aid may get caught up in cross fires or deliberate sabotaging of convoys (as happens to many every year) ... so the one thing we can be guaranteed is that there will be loss of life ... because of, or despite, this decision.

[gfwgfw]

It occurs to me that the UN are keeping their heads well below the parapet, so what is new

I cannot agree that the help needed by the general populace of Syria should be filed under "charity begins at home"

It beggars belief that the plight of any UK citizen can be compared to the plight of the Syrian populace who are wrapped up in this sad conflict

[Manoverboard]

... It beggars belief that the plight of any UK citizen can be compared to the plight of the Syrian populace who are wrapped up in this sad conflict

We are not making that comparison ... or at least I'm not.

A longer term solution is required rather than a knee jerk response.

[oldbluefox]

A longer term solution is required rather than a knee jerk response.

That is where we have gone wrong in all our other incursions into the Middle East with the result that none have been resolved satisfactorily.

Reports that Assad has moved prisoners, most of them protesters and objectors, to likely bomb targets as human shields, are disturbing. To me this is an international outrage and should be dealt with internationally, and specifically by Arab nations. Interference by the West, although welcomed in some quarters, is all too often seen as an intrusion against 'Muslim brothers' and results not in gratitude, but in resentment and blame. We have to be very careful but sadly whatever we do or not do, will be wrong.

[The Monocled Mutineer]

Yes, there are problems in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya post Hussein, Taliban and Gaddafi, but given continued support politically, militarily, humanitarian, educationally and economically, these nations are moving forward to better times, something that would never have happened if the US, the UK and our gallant allies had not intervened.

No mention in this thread also of the success in Kossovo (re NATO intervention) and other parts of the Former Republic of Yugoslavia, where not only have constituent countrys moved themselves forward to being members of the EU, EU candidate nations, or potential EU candidate nations, but the writ of justice, both national and international, has been brought down on that regions versions of Hussein, Taliban and Gaddafi.

[emjay45]

I feel very sorry for all the innocent people caught up in this dreadful conflict. However I'm not exactly sure whose 'side' we should be on if we did enter this civil war. I'm not quite sure who the bad guys are. I don't like to see people suffering but if we get involved, it won't be my life on the line or either of my sons. It's very easy to come onto a forum and start pontificating about what the Government should be doing when you're safely sitting behind a keyboard.

[Manoverboard]

Although obviously welcome the solution of Yugoslavia is the size of a gnat as compared to the Middle East.

We did a tour of old Yugo in 2010. The politics may be in place but the feelings of the people, we were advised many many times, still run very deep and their anger and hatred is only just below the surface.

[oldbluefox]

I have just come across a letter from a Mr KN Al-Sabah, London EC4, written, as far as I can gather to the FT:

The letter reads:

From Mr K N Al-Sabah.
Sir, Iran is backing Assad. Gulf states are against Assad!
Assad is against Muslim Brotherhood. Muslim Brotherhood and Obama are against General Sisi.
But Gulf states are pro Sisi! Which means they are against Muslim Brotherhood!
Iran is pro Hamas, but Hamas is backing Muslim Brotherhood!
Obama is backing Muslim Brotherhood, yet Hamas is against the US!
Gulf states are pro US. But Turkey is with Gulf states against Assad; yet Turkey is pro Muslim Brotherhood against General Sisi. And General Sisi is being backed by the Gulf states!

Welcome to the Middle East and have a nice day.

K N Al-Sabah, London EC4, UK

Make of that what you will. What a mess!!! And meanwhile innocent lives are being lost and ruined.

[Dark Knight]

I do love reading middle england's view on things they are stunningly ignorant about
let me ask a question :
who are we to invade another country , with the ultimate aim of turning them into a compliant lap dog democracy?

the arrogance of both the UK and the US is beyond description, swanning around telling other countries how to behave and how to live their lives, when both of these countries are as corrupt and crime ridden as any other, people die in America in droves , due to drugs, murder, stupid gun laws etc etc and yet they are telling others how to live, rank hypocrisy

the Uk is bankrupt , people die in hospitals, people dying due to drugs and crime, people living on the streets, education is a shambles, the NHS is broke and we are still trying to tell other countries how to run themselves
the middle east and far east has for centuries survived without stupid, arrogant , selfish, countries sticking their nose in
The UK and America have made a p*ss poor job of every country they have tried to help and we would be far better leading by example rather than leading with an army ,whilst our country falls into ruin

and reading some of the replies on here just show what a ignorant bunch of empire builders still reside in the UK

[Silver_Shiney]

Eloquently put, DK.

It's one thing to go to war against one country in defence of another (eg Iraq/Kuwait) but to get involved in another country's civil war, especially when we can't be sure who the good guys are, is madness. By all means send in humanitarian aid when we are in a position to do so, but, as has been said by people better than me, there are urgent needs in this country to be dealt with at government level. Once this country has been put back on its feet, it will be in a better position to help.

[The Monocled Mutineer]

The problems that exist to a lesser or greater extent in our liberal democracies, of which not all are due to government but as a matter of "lifestyle choice" by individual citizens and subjects is as nothing compared with the plight of those who live under the heel of diktat be it "socialist" (not genuine social-democracy) eg the PRC, fascist (such as Syria), theocratic (such as Iran and Saudi Arabia) or just sheer corruption (much of Africa).

I do not recognise the UK described in the previous but one reply. A citizen of one of the aforementioned revolting regimes, were they to promulgate the same (in their case the truth) via internet, poster or protest would soon be dead with much of their family dead or incarcerated too.

The vast majority of UK subjects lead fulfilling lives with at least the minimum of "comforts" such as a home, food on the table, health care, free education for their children and freedom and security, with elected and accountable policitians, a justice system based on Habeas Corpus,with accountable police, security services and armed forces.

The same can also be said of our fellow liberal democracies to a lesser or greater extent.