Syria

[HK phooey]

It is a great relief imo that parliament have voted against military action in Syria. Where were the air strikes in Rwanda, or is there no oil in that part of the world?

[Silver_Shiney]

I don't know about about "vast" - certainly the majority of people in this once-great country lead fulfilling lives and, by third world standards, are extremely rich.

However, there is a disturbingly growing number of people who are unable to put food on the table - and there is a growing number of Food Banks to deal with the problem. The homeless problem is growing. I met a former solicitor at my old soup kitchen who said I was only two pay cheques away from where he was. Girls are turning to prostitution just to get the money to live on - that's aside from the ones who do it to pay for a drugs habit.

It is acknowledged that the NHS is under-funded and over-administrated. The days when you could phone the surgery and get an appointment - or even get the doctor to come and see you - are long gone.

Yes, there is free eddukayshun for the children. A growing number leave school illiterate. They are taught not to think for themselves, so they blindly swallow any information (if they remember it, that is). The universities offer a growing number of mickey-mouse courses - a friend of my daughter recently submitted her thesis: "teenage vampires from a lesbian perspective". Hello??

We don't have the freedom to say what we think, unless we're homosexual or Muslim.

We are secure in the knowledge that any criminal who commits a crime will, if caught, be asked nicely to not do it again or else he'll be sent to a holiday camp with three square meals, Sky TV and video games. Meanwhile, our elderly languish in SOME care homes and wards with a level of care that, if given to an animal, would result in RSPCA action.

We have elected politicians who are only accountable if they are caught out.

The justice system is more concerned with the human rights of the offender.

The police are overstretched , with stations closing all the time.

We find the security services are snooping on us.

The armed forces are, as I said the other day, pared to the marrow. We could not defend this country if attacked. Yet we gayly talk about starting military action against Syria

DK's description of this country is spot on.

[The Monocled Mutineer]

Oil is not the driver for the the US, France and the UK Coalition Government's stance on Syria (the latter thwarted by the spilt decision in Parliament - the price we pay becuase we ARE a liberal democracy). It is about the appalling slaughter since March 2011 by the regime against it's people and in fairness by the Islamist elements of the 'opposition'

Nerve Gas and now napalm being used on civileans including a school (Newsnight, last night) let alone 'fighters'.

Rwanda was a terrible tragedy, which liberal democracies have learnt from and have strengthened and estblished UN RRF from regional and other powers to deal with such outrages in the future, in Africa and elsewhere.

[towny44]

There has been almost as much rhetoric about the Syrian conflict on this forum as in our Parliament, but I am still not convinced by the arguments of Ken, Derek, David Cameron and others that it would have been right for the UK to become involved in any air strikes on the Assad regime. This is not because we cannot afford the expense or that we should concentrate our efforts closer to home, it is IMO because we have proved in Iraq, Afghanistan and the wider middle east that Western interference in this area does far more harm than good.
Humanitarian aid should continue as should diplomatic moves via the UN to try and bring about a peaceful resolution, but we should not be involved nor encourage other countries to take any form of military action.

[The Monocled Mutineer]

Silver Shiny:

Yes, problems do exist in our nation and other liberal democracies (look at Spain and Greece - much worse), but the vast majority of people in our nation are not starving, not homeless, not 'living" on prostitution, taking illegal drugs.

I'm afraid your Daily Express, saloon bore tirade about homesexuals, muslims, 'hoilday camps for prisoners', tabloid headlines about some silly uni course, paranoia about "the man" snooping, etc,etc is just a rather a bloated out piece of wet, black propaganda - which, because we live in a free country, you are entitled to peddle, without fear of a "knock at the door".

[Kendhni]

There has been almost as much rhetoric about the Syrian conflict on this forum as in our Parliament, but I am still not convinced by the arguments of Ken, Derek, David Cameron and others that it would have been right for the UK to become involved in any air strikes on the Assad regime. This is not because we cannot afford the expense or that we should concentrate our efforts closer to home, it is IMO because we have proved in Iraq, Afghanistan and the wider middle east that Western interference in this area does far more harm than good.
Humanitarian aid should continue as should diplomatic moves via the UN to try and bring about a peaceful resolution, but we should not be involved nor encourage other countries to take any form of military action.

Excuse me, but i have never said that they should become involved .. I have merely wondered if our lack of response is the correct one and done for the right reasons (and in the main I don't think the reasons are right, I believe it is mostly selfish reasons and most people have the opinion the media has told them to have). However I refuse to kow-tow to whatever rubbish the media is spinning at the minute and the bar room experts who have all the answers but not a solution amongst them.

Maybe the right answer is "to hell with the men women and children of Syria, let them continue slaughtering each other just so long as it doesn't affect us"? That attitude would suit many. The one thing that we guarantee is that it doesn't matter how we as individuals have reacted, when push comes to shove most of us are British and those with grievances against the British will not discriminate against those it perceives as enemies when they take retribution.

Yes aid should continue, as the men and women of aid organisations put their lives at risk ... with little support or backup. Maybe throwing a few crumbs at the Syrians will make some feel better, but it will not provide a resolution. I have always said that 'war is the failure of diplomacy' and Blairs lies and spin is still with us bothin Iraq and Afghanistan, so it is important to get everyone around the table, but at the minute there are too many agendas being followed.

[Frank Manning]

I feel very sorry for all the innocent people caught up in this dreadful conflict. However I'm not exactly sure whose 'side' we should be on if we did enter this civil war. I'm not quite sure who the bad guys are. I don't like to see people suffering but if we get involved, it won't be my life on the line or either of my sons. It's very easy to come onto a forum and start pontificating about what the Government should be doing when you're safely sitting behind a keyboard.

Good points Emjay.

[Wobgoescruising]

My husband had to sit and watch the horrific pictures on the news last night when he would rather be doing his job and helping to sort it out. He's no braver than the anybody else in the military but he knows what his job should be. He feels quite useless at the moment.

[towny44]

Ken, sorry if I have misjudged your views on this issue. However I certainly do not believe your low opinion of the UK populace being led by the media and that they have a selfish attitude about any involvement in Syria. Only in the media that you castigate have I heard any narrow minded self interest points of view being advocated, I expect that the majority of the population are as confused as I am about the rights and wrongs of this conflict, and they would prefer that the UK did not interfere and make it any worse.
Your low opinion of your fellow countrymen appears to be at variance with the Ken I have to come to know through most of your posts, I do hope you are back to your normal self very soon.

[The Monocled Mutineer]

Wobgoescruising:

At risk of being accused of sycophancy and for holding a minority view (public opinion wise) to the subject in had (although nearly half of the MPs who voted last night would appear to take the same view as - ie an intervention to constrain Assad in using heavy ordnance and WMD against his own people), your husband is typical and a splendid example of our fine armed forces.

And not because they "relish a fight" ( a few nutters excepted) - but because THEY KNOW they can make a difference and change outcomes, as we have done in the past alone or in concert with our gallant allies.

[The Monocled Mutineer]

Although I disagree with Ken on some issues, his contributions to this subject are refreshing and original. He is correct on this issue in my view, re the "lets put our heads in the sand and it might just all go away".

What the people should have been demanding of their politicians is to agree in principle to intervention and work with and persuade as many liberal democracies as well as regional powers with regional issues to act in concert to constrain and box in the disgusting governing regime of Syria and to work to an armistice and relocate the 1m displaced people's into safe havens WITHIN their own nation and repatriate the same from neighbouring countries and rebuild the homes, schools, hospitals in the safe havens with the massive oil wealth of the gulf states and Russia, rather than supply a rag tag and Bobtail of some very "dodgy" at best anti Assad fighters with weapons. Russia must also seize arming Assad.

This work should have started over a year ago when it became clear that Assad wasn't the great hope with his Syrian English wife and interviews for Hello Magazine!

However we are where we are ... And in the meantime more will die at the hands of the regime ( and the Islamists ) ... One hopes that Obama and Hollande are receiving the best and wisest of councils before invoking their Commander in Chief roles. As free, democratic men, and leaders of their liberal democracies, the last thing they will want is to see their boys from Tampa or Toulouse returning in body-bags.

[Kendhni]

Your low opinion of your fellow countrymen appears to be at variance with the Ken I have to come to know through most of your posts, I do hope you are back to your normal self very soon.

I can only judge by what I have read on various chatboards on this issue ... it is blindingly obvious that self-interest is the main reason for many many of the posts I have read ... albeit disguised under various hypocritical but mostly manufactured reasons often led by the media. We are generally very ill informed about what is really going on in Syria, relying mainly on a few short snippets on news reels and stories in newspapers that are designed to sell.

I am not going to pretend to be an expert (like so many seem to be doing), nor am I going to pretend I have any answers (like so many are doing) ... but, as I said, I hope (but doubt) that the decisions being taken at the minute are being done for the correct moral reasons. All the political parties are all over the place at the minute on this as they pander to popular opinion and vote grabbing ... maybe that popular opinion is right or maybe it is wrong ... but, at the minute, we don't have to worry which it is ... unfortunately those involved do!

[david63]

I will openly state that whatever happens in Syria I have a self interest - one son-in-law in the Navy and future son-in-law in the RAF

[Silver_Shiney]

Silver Shiny:

Yes, problems do exist in our nation and other liberal democracies (look at Spain and Greece - much worse), but the vast majority of people in our nation are not starving, not homeless, not 'living" on prostitution, taking illegal drugs.

I'm afraid your Daily Express, saloon bore tirade about homesexuals, muslims, 'hoilday camps for prisoners', tabloid headlines about some silly uni course, paranoia about "the man" snooping, etc,etc is just a rather a bloated out piece of wet, black propaganda - which, because we live in a free country, you are entitled to peddle, without fear of a "knock at the door".

So the Daily Express talks common sense as well, does it? I wouldn't know, I don't read it. I speak from observation and first hand experience, not third rate speculation

[HK phooey]

From MSN.

That whole Middle East deal sure can be confusing. Thankfully, in this concise and clearly articulated letter to the editor published in the Financial Times, Mr KN Al-Sabah, of London, lays it all out in a way anyone can understand. In full, his letter, entitled "A Short Guide to the Middle East," read:

Sir, Iran is backing Assad. Gulf states are against Assad!
Assad is against Muslim Brotherhood. Muslim Brotherhood and Obama are against General Sisi.
But Gulf states are pro Sisi! Which means they are against Muslim Brotherhood!
Iran is pro Hamas, but Hamas is backing Muslim Brotherhood!
Obama is backing Muslim Brotherhood, yet Hamas is against the US!
Gulf states are pro US. But Turkey is with Gulf states against Assad; yet Turkey is pro Muslim Brotherhood against General Sisi. And General Sisi is being backed by the Gulf states!
Welcome to the Middle East and have a nice day.

[Silver_Shiney]

From MSN.

That whole Middle East deal sure can be confusing. Thankfully, in this concise and clearly articulated letter to the editor published in the Financial Times, Mr KN Al-Sabah, of London, lays it all out in a way anyone can understand. In full, his letter, entitled "A Short Guide to the Middle East," read:

Sir, Iran is backing Assad. Gulf states are against Assad!
Assad is against Muslim Brotherhood. Muslim Brotherhood and Obama are against General Sisi.
But Gulf states are pro Sisi! Which means they are against Muslim Brotherhood!
Iran is pro Hamas, but Hamas is backing Muslim Brotherhood!
Obama is backing Muslim Brotherhood, yet Hamas is against the US!
Gulf states are pro US. But Turkey is with Gulf states against Assad; yet Turkey is pro Muslim Brotherhood against General Sisi. And General Sisi is being backed by the Gulf states!
Welcome to the Middle East and have a nice day.

Dear heart, Foxy posted that this morning. Do keep up

[HK phooey]

Did he? Sorry It's worth a second read though isn't it? May I also say that the fact that the US defence secretary is a man called Chuck gives me cause for alarm.

[Manoverboard]

See #75 for confirmation ... but it does explain it all very well does it not so well worth repeating.

[Silver_Shiney]

Did he? Sorry It's worth a second read though isn't it? May I also say that the fact that the US defence secretary is a man called Chuck gives me cause for alarm.

Could be worse - he might have been named Randall (in full).....

[The Monocled Mutineer]

No, Silver Shiney:

Just your saloon bar rant trash / recycled tabloid info stream. In the real world of the UK most people go to work, bring up and care for their families, they enjoy free NHS, free education for their children, we have good local government and governance and all levels of government and our "guardians" are accountable. That is the reality, and not just confined to just very prosperous 'oasis' in the rural south.

Yes, there are some problems, and clearly, like much of the developed world, these are tough times for the majority - but as nothing compared with what the world's poor have to contend with and unhappily coincidental with some of the most disgusting regimes on the planet.

I am intensely proud of our wonderful free, liberal, pluralistic nation and our record in intervening with disgusting regImes that abuse their people, our lead in overseas aid and the generosity of the British people to charities that help the world's poor, the oppressed and refugees.

[Dark Knight]

can one of the forum's experts please tell me where we have succesfully invaded somewhere and made it better?

oh and please be open and honest and not spout a load of internet dross or some rubbish from the Guardian
coz as far as I can see and the history books say...we have done crap everywhere and to reiterate my earlier point
why do we think our way of life is what the rest of the world wants, arrogance beyond measure

[Silver_Shiney]

No, Silver Shiney:

Just your saloon bar rant trash / recycled tabloid info stream. In the real world of the UK most people go to work, bring up and care for their families, they enjoy free NHS, free education for their children, we have good local government and governance and all levels of government and our "guardians" are accountable. That is the reality, and not just confined to just very prosperous 'oasis' in the rural south.

Yes, there are some problems, and clearly, like much of the developed world, these are tough times for the majority - but as nothing compared with what the world's poor have to contend with and unhappily coincidental with some of the most disgusting regimes on the planet.

I am intensely proud of our wonderful free, liberal, pluralistic nation and our record in intervening with disgusting regImes that abuse their people, our lead in overseas aid and the generosity of the British people to charities that help the world's poor, the oppressed and refugees.

"Just your saloon bar rant trash / recycled tabloid info stream." More abuse, the sign of someone who knows he's lost the argument.

So what you are saying is that your misconceived (albeit well-meaning) conjecture takes precedence over my personal experience and knowledge. How does that work then?

I've seen areas of life that you clearly haven't (and I hope to goodness you never do).

I would like to welcome you to Planet Earth, but I don't think you'd like what you'll find here. You're proud of this nation? I am ashamed of it.

[Not so ancient mariner]

can one of the forum's experts please tell me where we have succesfully invaded somewhere and made it better?

oh and please be open and honest and not spout a load of internet dross or some rubbish from the Guardian
coz as far as I can see and the history books say...we have done crap everywhere and to reiterate my earlier point
why do we think our way of life is what the rest of the world wants, arrogance beyond measure

I do believe we managed it in 1944!

[Dark Knight]

the turning point of WW2, was the ill advised invasion of Russia, which depleted the German army enough for the allies to become victorious at the D day landings and subsequent campaigns
so we should thank the Russians for their help
not perhaps the best example ,

[Not so ancient mariner]

If you are not satisfied with that one, how about the events of 1-3 August 1704?