Please Define Disabled?

[david63]

Is it thoughtlessness or practicality. Perhaps those who do that have tried the thoughtful route only to find that the thoughtless "able bodied" then create problems for them. Just a thought

[ITWA Travel Writer]

Dark Knight, your statement “it was popularised by the media after the Titanic sinking but has no basis in fact”, is only in part true. It was indeed the Titanic sinking which popularised the phrase but its true origin was some 60 years earlier.

The phrase originated from a real recorded incident in 1852, when the Royal Navy troopship HMS Birkenhead had to be evacuated after striking a reef fifty miles out from Simon’s Bay, near Cape Town. Major Seaton of the 74th, being the senior regimental officer on-board, was requested by Captain Salmond “to be kind enough to preserve order and silence among the men”.

Only two cutters and a gig were launched into the water and Major Seaton, with hands raised above his head, pleaded with the men to allow the women and children to embark first.

This cry “Woman and Children First” was then taken up by all the officers on-board and hence became, at least within British maritime tradition, a historical code of naval conduct.

It is known officially as the “Birkinhead Drill”

I would concur that it has no basis in maritime law.

By the way, all the women and children on-board the Birkinhead survived whilst many of the soldiers and sailors did not.

[Dark Knight]

it should of course of read
no basis in Maritime law
only in tradition

I stand a little bit corrected

[ITWA Travel Writer]

There was also some studies carried out by Professor Galea of the University of Greenwich, who specialises in disaster evacuation.

He concluded that in modern day evacuations people will usually help the most vulnerable to get to safety first.
He went on to say that this does not necessarily mean women, but is likely to be the injured, the elderly, the infirmed and young children.

Having studied the recent Concordia evacuation, he commented that ignoring the Captains antics, the majority of crew and passengers did indeed follow the pattern of evacuation described above.

[david63]

The point is though that non of us know how we would react in a disaster situation and whilst we would all like to think that we would help those more vulnerable that ourselves I fear that natural survival instincts would "kick in"

[Dark Knight]

getting back to the original question, in regard to cruise ships in particular
I would define disabled as anyone who cannot look after themselves without help from another person, this would include wheelchair and scooter users and anyone needing assistance from the crew to get in and out of any location and/ or cabin,bed or bathroom

the problem is everyone is too scared to stand up and say that disabled people in wheelchairs and people on scooters are in fact a liability on a ship and in the event of a major disaster they would be a hinderance that may well lead to the death of people more mobile than them

[oldbluefox]

But we come back to degrees of disability. Somebody in a wheelchair may move faster than somebody who is old or infirm but not categorised as disabled. At the moment I have a bad back. Whilst I could never be considered disabled I am not moving around as quickly as normal.
Similarly does a wheelchair take up any more room than somebody who is either very big or obese?

[Dark Knight]

As I said Foxy
anyone who cannot take care of themselves on their own without assistance from another person, would be my definition
scooters and wheelchairs may move faster than a fat old person but the person in the wheeled chariot can't or else they would not be in it,in the first place

[david63]

There is an interesting item here from P&O which answers some of the points raised here

[towny44]

As I said Foxy
anyone who cannot take care of themselves on their own without assistance from another person, would be my definition
scooters and wheelchairs may move faster than a fat old person but the person in the wheeled chariot can't or else they would not be in it,in the first place

That's not necessarily true DK, some people use electric scooters because they cannot walk fast or long distances, but could be mobile in an emergency.

getting back to the original question, in regard to cruise ships in particular
I would define disabled as anyone who cannot look after themselves without help from another person, this would include wheelchair and scooter users and anyone needing assistance from the crew to get in and out of any location and/ or cabin,bed or bathroom

the problem is everyone is too scared to stand up and say that disabled people in wheelchairs and people on scooters are in fact a liability on a ship and in the event of a major disaster they would be a hinderance that may well lead to the death of people more mobile than them

I hope you are only playing devil's advocate here DK. Anyway if you read the link that Smurfy has provided, you will note that P&O, and one assumes most other cruise lines, have a designated team to help disabled passengers in an emergency and therefore they should not be a hinderance to other passengers who will have a totally seperate team to ensure they are evacuated as rapidly as possible if required.

[Dark Knight]

John
I am trying to be honest and open, without this descending into a row
so lets look at the points you raised
if a person is in a wheelchair or uses a scooter, it is fair to assume they are not very mobile, so how do they get to a muster point quickly, safley and how then do they get in a life boat, without aid?
if they are part of an older couple say, can the opther partner pickm up and carry them to safety and if not then the use of the crew to assist is in fact taking them away from helping a greater number of people in an emergency?

Secondly can you honestly say without any comeback, that disabled people and invalids are not a hinderance in a real emergency
as I said, Devils advocate or no, people are too PC to come out with what they really mean and skirt the issue for fear of being seen as uncaring

[Gill W]

On a cruise ship, there are many elderly people who don't move around very quickly, not to mention those who are in chairs / scooters or need an aid for walking.

It takes a long time for people in those categories to enter / leave a room / move around the ship even in a non emergency situation, so I often wonder what it'd be like in a real emergency.

In my office, like most places of work we have un-announced emergency drills. I wish cruise companies would do this too, so they can get a better understanding of what would really happen if a large amount of elderly, possibly infirm people had move themselves around with little fuss and bother in a situation which the passengers didn't have prior knowledge of a drill being performed

[towny44]

John
I am trying to be honest and open, without this descending into a row
so lets look at the points you raised
if a person is in a wheelchair or uses a scooter, it is fair to assume they are not very mobile, so how do they get to a muster point quickly, safley and how then do they get in a life boat, without aid?
if they are part of an older couple say, can the opther partner pickm up and carry them to safety and if not then the use of the crew to assist is in fact taking them away from helping a greater number of people in an emergency?

Secondly can you honestly say without any comeback, that disabled people and invalids are not a hinderance in a real emergency
as I said, Devils advocate or no, people are too PC to come out with what they really mean and skirt the issue for fear of being seen as uncaring

DK, please read the info in David's link where it explains in detail how they would cope using specially trained passenger assistance crew. Secondly do remember that there is 1 crew member for every 3 passengers, so I hardly think that the passenger assistance team will limit the number required to handle the remaining passengers.
However I will accept that in a fast moving emergency a very large number of disabled passengers needing extra help could ceate problems, but there are only 31 accessible cabins on Azura/Ventura and less on all the others, and some disabled passengers in these are likely to have enough mobility to board a lifeboat without assistance.
Let's hope that any evacuation you are involved in moves slowly and safely; but if we are ever in the same emergency I will try not to park Pauline's wheelchair on your foot and slow down your progress!

[Dancing Queen]

On a cruise ship, there are many elderly people who don't move around very quickly, not to mention those who are in chairs / scooters or need an aid for walking.

It takes a long time for people in those categories to enter / leave a room / move around the ship even in a non emergency situation, so I often wonder what it'd be like in a real emergency.

In my office, like most places of work we have un-announced emergency drills. I wish cruise companies would do this too, so they can get a better understanding of what would really happen if a large amount of elderly, possibly infirm people had move themselves around with little fuss and bother in a situation which the passengers didn't have prior knowledge of a drill being performed

Gill, for all we know they probably do ( during the crew drills ) I'm sure none of these things are left to chance.

I appreciate what you are saying that elderly people would not move quickly but looking at it logically in an emergency situation several thousand passengers would not be able to move quickly young or old.

[Manoverboard]

... Anyway if you read the link that Smurfy has provided, you will note that P&O, and one assumes most other cruise lines, have a designated team to help disabled passengers in an emergency and therefore they should not be a hindrance to other passengers who will have a totally separate team to ensure they are evacuated as rapidly as possible if required.

We were on Oriana during the Norovirus epidemic, December 2012.

P&O had a specially trained and designated team to deal with an outbreak on that cruise but in the event they didn't know if they were on foot or horse back. I suggest that another fiasco could be in the making and that these ' evacuation staff ' should receive training that actually involves pretend but very awkward passengers in wheelchairs all of whom are in a blind panic due to their greater vulnerability, albeit simulated in the training scenario.

Just a thought.

[Dark Knight]

My view is fairly simplistic
if I or my wife could not get from one end of the ship to the other, under our own steam, without enlisting the help of a third party, then we would not be on the ship, as we present a clear danger/hinderance to other people in the event of a serious emergency
no amount of supposed training etc ,makes up for the fact some people cannot make a safe evacuation without help and for that reason they should think long and hard about booking a cruise or going on flights, because to expect a crew member to put thier own life at risk to help people who should have been more honest about their mobility in the first place is simply unnacceptable
perhaps the rules should be much tighter not less

[david63]

DK - that is your view to which you are perfectly entitled, even though there will be many, myself included, who will not agree with it.

One point that I will agree with you though is that passengers, both cruising and flying, should be honest about any disability that they have - however when you live with a disability then you accept its limitations and cannot always be objective and see it from another perspective. Perhaps the answer would be that to cruise/fly everyone should have a medical examination. But then why limit it to cruising and flying - surely the same issues surround every other form of transport (train, bus, car, coach etc.)?

Then there is the question of what happens with a passenger who starts off the journey and then becomes ill and cannot "look after themselves" or breaks a leg and becomes immobile? Taking one step further - what about children who whilst, in all probability will be [very] mobile, certainly would not be able to react in the same way as an adult in an emergency situation and may possibly become another hazard.

I am reasonably confident that all cruise lines/airlines/other transport companies are constantly monitoring and reviewing their codes of practice/procedures in this respect but there will never be a "one size fits all" answer to this problem.

[Dark Knight]

David
yes one size does not fit all, but there must surely be steps taken to reduce the risk to passengers
Nobody can factor in the unexpected or it would not be unexpected, my view is that if you are disabled enough to need help from a n other on a permananet basis, then perhaps a cruise ship is not right place for them to be

I know many many people will no doubt will start to get all excited about the points I raised but to me people booking a cruise, when they are not mobile enough, under their own steam , to move freeley about the ship and evacuate themselves in a proper fashiopn are going to be a hinderance. this is a simple fact, granted people dont like this fact, but whichever argument you present, the truth is disabled people in wheelchairs and those who use scooters coz they cant walk are going to be a danger, and no amount of Political correctness and tip toeing around the issue is going to change that fact.
so the question remains , how disabled is a person ,before they should not be allowed to board a ship or a flight, as a precaution and for the safety of others?
like I said pages ago, start asking the hard questions and stop being to scared to raise them and we may just get a sensible debate

[stocktonmackem]

My husband is a paraplegic and therefore wheelchair bound. When we book our cruise we tell P & O everything they need to know of his disability. They are happy to take our money for the cruise plus whatever we spend on the ship. He does need help to get into his wheelchair but after that he does everything himself. He would not expect anyone to put themselves out for him, except me of course but if god forbid there was a problem at sea he would take his chance with everyone else. If P & O are happy to take his money then he is entitled to be on the ship with everyone else.

[oldbluefox]

DK is correct in his assertion that mobility scooters and wheelchairs would present a hazard in the event of evacuation of a ship. However the risk is proportional. How many times has it been necessary to evacuate a ship? The notion of preventing the disabled from cruising on the off chance of there being an emergency evacuation is disproportional to the risk involved.

I don't see that as a PC comment, merely looking at the issue from a pragmatic point of view. I actually see few problems presented by those who are immobile except when they park their mobility scooters across the corridor whilst waiting for a lift when everybody is coming out of the show!!!!

[Andrea S]

I realise there are posters on here who are the main carers. Those that have posted obviously through discussion chose a cruise that was suitable for their family. They have also made comments that show the person they are responsible for has some type of independence. Even if this is something simple it will help the carer enjoy their holiday.

BUT, The point DK makes may sound extreme but I agree with him 100%.
It is not the responsibility of a cruise company to provide help it is the main carer who takes responsibility. I have commented earlier that the needs of my son were complex. On holiday I had to travel with 3 carers, ( I always had to have a back up. ) and in case of any emergency I would never have expected them to put their lives at risk to save my son.

One thing that is never mentioned is other people's attitude to someone in a wheelchair. If they 'look' normal and can hold a conversation there isn't likely to be a problem. Severe disabilities cause people to stare , forgetting that is extremely hurtful.

I have cried many times at the attitude of people who to be honest I would have expected to be sympathetic. Accidents and illness can happen to anyone , it is only then people grasp the enormous task ahead if them.

[hopefultraveller]

Does this mean I am not allowed to visit the top floor of a large department store at, say, sales time, in case a fire breaks out and I get in the way of those trying to leave in a panic?
Val

[Mr-big-bits-mk2]

Good to see the old 'disabled people should be kept in boxes in-case they in some way make my life slightly more difficult' attitude is alive and well.

I'd argue that anyone who has had a little too much to drink on board will be as much a risk as well.

What about children. Are they always with their parents at all times, probably not if there are kids clubs on board. We should ban them as well in case someone is put at jeopardy in an emergency trying to look after them.

Infact everyone who is not close to perfect health should be kept away from cruise ships so there is no risk to those more fortunate or we could accept that we make the best of a less than perfect world and tolerate those less fortunate than the rest of us.

[Gill W]

I think everyone needs to be aware of their limitations, and also to be aware of their surroundings, and the exits available to them.

I wouldn't chose to visit the top floor of a large department store on the sale the sale starts, but no one should be prevented from doing something they want to do. However, they should take responsibility for themselves, and have plans in place for what would happen in the unlikely event of an emergency. e.g a way out they can manage for themselves, or a companion who will assist them.

[stocktonmackem]

Which was my point Gill, i would look after my husband and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do it. Disabled people would need to stay indoors out of the way if some people had their way. I do not mean people on this forum but in general people have this attitude. Disability was the last thing on my husband's mind when he went to play golf and had to come home because he had a bad back. After years of going on flights and having to be humped in and out of his wheelchair we decided to try cruising. He gets on and off ship without help and at last he found a holiday he can look forward to. Mind he would have his own answer if there was a problem on the ship and that would be to save myself and leave him because he is a firm believers if your time is up its up.