Halloween

[Bunion]

Being a Halloween baby (albeit now a very late middle aged one - well old really!) we have always held parties for our own four grandchildren with pumpkins, ghosts in the porch, scarecrows on brooms behind trees etc. Consequently the presence of all these visible props has encouraged many trick and treaters. NEVER have we had any trouble, and we get all ages from tinies to gruff voiced teens at the door. Many of them -especially the older ones - remember from year to year that it is a birthday celebration for me, and wish me birthday greetings. I also have to say that the outfits are nearly always homemade and the make up quite marvellous. My old 92 year old mother is also a Halloween baby and continues to be delighted by what we view as a lovely annual event in our neighbourhood - and no, we don't live in a particularly select area, just a normal place. I also understand what others are saying, and would in no way condone the terrorising of oldies in the name of fun.

[Silver_Shiney]

I really don't mind quiet parties for youngsters, so that they can dress up and have suitably themed food; BUT I do mind this 'trick or treat' business. Trick or treat as far as I am concerned is condoning bullying and demanding money with menaces at the very least, and being a blasted nuisance too - blatant begging.

So, our gates are firmly locked, and the padlocks will stay during night hours for a few days yet.

I also don't like the product being blatantly pushed by supermarkets - if a parent wants to make a costume from paper crepe or cheap fabric that's ok, but I've seen children nagging parents for these supermarket outfits and accessories - what a waste of money.

Em

Totally agree.

Why celebrate death and the spiritually dark side of life?

[Silver_Shiney]

Years ago I had no problem with joining with other parents and doing food and an outfit for a little party held locally. There was no buying of fancy outfits and seeing who could buy the best etc., the parents all made the outfits - and those who weren't very good at making outfits did a bit more towards the catering, and people who weren't too good at catering bits and pieces helped with outfits and decoration. Everyone had a lovely time.

With small children it's not so bad - but when teenagers catch on to this it can be quite intimidating. I don't want to see people dressed up as corpses - I've had enough of that for real; and whilst the little children tend to dress as harmless ghosts or pumpkins or little devils, with teenagers it just seems that they go 'one step too far' - and I don't like it; they verge on being sinister.

Nowadays I simply don't like answering the door to people I don't know - especially at night at this time of year.

Therefore, all the gates are locked.

Em

And for this, you get slagged off and told to lighten up?

I've got no problem with kids having INNOCENT fun (bobbing for apples, carving funny faces on a pumpkin and putting a candle inside, etc) but let's drop the occult side of it, eh?

[Silver_Shiney]

Most of our Halloween has been spent in A&E. OH didn't need any make up, he had a huge, and very real wound, to his head, (after falling down some steps in the garden), which would have frightened even the brave! The pool of blood he left on the ground could have come in very useful for the revellers!

Oh dear - wishing him a VERY speedy recovery

[Silver_Shiney]

It is noticeable, I think, that the supporters of "trick or treat" have no experience of the more objectionable version of this annoying practice.

It is very true that no-one objects at all to "giggly girls from the streets nearby..with a parent in the background" or small, local children dressing up as witches, skeletons or whatever and collecting sweets and chocolate bars - they can indeed be quite endearing with their turnip or pumpkin lanterns and happy, excited faces.

What is less pleasant, however, is the relatively recent experience of a group of teenage lads, whose only attempt at "dressing up" is a 50p mask from the local shop, hammering on the door, peering through the windows, demanding money. A refusal is to risk a "trick" involving damage to your property, bins emptied on your drive and/or eggs (or worse) flung at your doors and windows.

O.K., most of us can deal with this in our own way but to elderly people, perhaps living alone, it can be quite frightening. Harmless fun? I think not - just another unpleasant American import that we could well do without.

Well said (although I would object to the giggle girls and small local children too. It's begging, pure and simple.

[Andrea S]

Wolfe,

I do hope your OH is ok this morning. I guess feeling pretty sore.

Traumatic for you as well but that little bit of humour can often help ease the situation.

[wolfie]

Thanks for your good wishes. We will know more tomorrow as he has to attend A&E again.

[Dancing Queen]

Years ago I had no problem with joining with other parents and doing food and an outfit for a little party held locally. There was no buying of fancy outfits and seeing who could buy the best etc., the parents all made the outfits - and those who weren't very good at making outfits did a bit more towards the catering, and people who weren't too good at catering bits and pieces helped with outfits and decoration. Everyone had a lovely time.

With small children it's not so bad - but when teenagers catch on to this it can be quite intimidating. I don't want to see people dressed up as corpses - I've had enough of that for real; and whilst the little children tend to dress as harmless ghosts or pumpkins or little devils, with teenagers it just seems that they go 'one step too far' - and I don't like it; they verge on being sinister.

Nowadays I simply don't like answering the door to people I don't know - especially at night at this time of year.

Therefore, all the gates are locked.

Em

And for this, you get slagged off and told to lighten up?

I've got no problem with kids having INNOCENT fun (bobbing for apples, carving funny faces on a pumpkin and putting a candle inside, etc) but let's drop the occult side of it, eh?

I think you are being a bit unfair here Alan as being told to 'lighten up' was not in response to this post, there was no mention of 'teens' being intimidating in the original post it was just about children enjoying themselves and dressing up.

No-one is saying that 'some' teens are not intimidating especially if people are on there own I can see how this would be a concern, I don't like opening the door on dark nights if I don't know the person on the other side but this thread really wasn't about that was it ? it was about children dressing up and having a bit of fun and I doubt any of them are even aware of the 'dark side' I know I certainly don't see it like that.

[Silver_Shiney]

I don't think I'm being unfair, Jo. It was Em's general attitude to the whole farce that was being "got at", not just that particular post.

I agree many small kids won't generally be aware of the "dark" side to Halloween, but it is certainly there and, by introducing it to them at a young age in this seemingly harmless way, it makes the occult seem safe and not something to be avoided. The Harry Potter series has done much to sanitise witchcraft.

As has been said earlier, this is now here to stay, sadly. All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. Those who should know better stood back and let this happen. We're now reaping the results.

[Manoverboard]

I do not believe for a single moment that we can, nor should we even attempt to, pretend that the occult does not exist. Knowing the truth about such things is healthy in that it enables an informed choice by the person concerned rather than that person simply accepting the view of somebody else who is biased against it ... albeit for the most valid of reasons. We encouraged our children to participate within the spirit intended and they have done the same for our Grandchildren, everybody is perfectly normal so far.

Poses the question ...

How many children who dress up in such a manner and knock on a few doors in their neighbourhood are going to finish up dancing naked in the woods at various times of the year because of the experience ... none imo.

[Silver_Shiney]

Fair point, Moby, but my original question still stands: (to clarify) why celebrate death and go out of the way to glorify stuff that the rest of the time we would consider to be horrible - skeletons, gore, ugly hag faces etc?

My son reports that, where he is in Florida, they don't do the "horrible" dressing up and the vandalism that goes under the guise of trick or treat. The little kids dress up as princesses or pirates or whatever, not ghouls.

[Dancing Queen]

Sorry Alan I don't see that, Em was not being got at or at least not that I could see, if she chooses to post then she has to accept that not everyone will agree with her views just as we all do, you obviously don't agree with what I've said but it won't be upsetting me because you are as entitled to your opinion as I am.

Crikey Moby do tell us more .. what do you know about dancing naked in the woods, folk round here don't do things like that .. or I don't think they do I'll just pop out and check

[Silver_Shiney]

Sorry Alan I don't see that, Em was not being got at or at least not that I could see, if she chooses to post then she has to accept that not everyone will agree with her views just as we all do, you obviously don't agree with what I've said but it won't be upsetting me because you are as entitled to your opinion as I am.

fair enough

Crikey Moby do tell us more .. what do you know about dancing naked in the woods, folk round here don't do things like that .. or I don't think they do I'll just pop out and check

that reminds me of when I was on the committee of a residents' association in Lincoln many moons ago. Three ladies came to us to complain about a man who was out emptying his bin at 0300 wearing nothing but a red bobble hat, and what were we going to do about it. All we could think of in response was "what are you all doing up at 0300 watching him?"

[Manoverboard]

... Crikey Moby do tell us more .. what do you know about dancing naked in the woods, folk round here don't do things like that .. or I don't think they do I'll just pop out and check

Well ... it all started one night over a meal in ' The Wizard ', a pseudo pub / restaurant adjacent to the woods above the well known coven village of Alderley edge.

[Dancing Queen]

... Crikey Moby do tell us more .. what do you know about dancing naked in the woods, folk round here don't do things like that .. or I don't think they do I'll just pop out and check

Well ... it all started one night over a meal in ' The Wizard ', a pseudo pub / restaurant adjacent to the woods above the well known coven village of Alderley edge.

So that's what the 'posh' folk of Alderley Edge get up to

[gfwgfw]

Poor Mr Skeleton never made it to the Halloween party . . . . cus he had nobody to go with

Luboo all

Graham x

[Dancing Queen]

that reminds me of when I was on the committee of a residents' association in Lincoln many moons ago. Three ladies came to us to complain about a man who was out emptying his bin at 0300 wearing nothing but a red bobble hat, and what were we going to do about it. All we could think of in response was "what are you all doing up at 0300 watching him?"

They'd obviously been comparing notes Alan, was there some significance to the red bobble hat or were they just avoiding looking at the obvious

[Silver_Shiney]

that reminds me of when I was on the committee of a residents' association in Lincoln many moons ago. Three ladies came to us to complain about a man who was out emptying his bin at 0300 wearing nothing but a red bobble hat, and what were we going to do about it. All we could think of in response was "what are you all doing up at 0300 watching him?"

They'd obviously been comparing notes Alan, was there some significance to the red bobble hat or were they just avoiding looking at the obvious

No idea, Jo

[Boris+]

I did perhaps feel that I was being a 'bit got at' - but then that's because I have a very low opinion of and intolerance of some of the costumes and masks being paraded around at this time of year.

However, I'm going to stand by my stance of not supporting the selling of these cheap and sometimes inappropriate costumes in big stores. In order to keep up with peers and peer groups some children are (no matter how subtly) nagging their parents to buy this stuff in stores - and of course there's a whole raft of hallowe'en food and drink (not to mention the paper plates and napkins and decorations) which go with it all.

Sorry about the soap box folks, but surely it's better/nicer for parents to invest time etc in the kids than just throwing money at the situation - and money which is sometimes ill-spent and ill-afforded? Old clothes can be recycled into costumes, it doesn't take much imagination and implementation; and it shows the children how to make 'something out of nothing'. It's almost as bad as living on convenience food - not a good example and not one I'm likely to follow.
Ok, so maybe making elaborate costumes is not for everyone, but pool resources and strengthen community relationships at the same time - win win.
The food doesn't need to be bought in, and many of the decorations can be made at home too - I reckon if you have to have a party etc, this could be the route with most fun and least harm.

Getting back to all this hallowe'en lark - I won't celebrate the dark side, and I won't celebrate death - which is sometimes unbearably negative.

Enough said.

Em

[Silver_Shiney]

On reflection, perhaps "celebrate" is the wrong word - "glamourise" is probably more what I am thinking

[suespud]

I did perhaps feel that I was being a 'bit got at' - but then that's because I have a very low opinion of and intolerance of some of the costumes and masks being paraded around at this time of year.

However, I'm going to stand by my stance of not supporting the selling of these cheap and sometimes inappropriate costumes in big stores. In order to keep up with peers and peer groups some children are (no matter how subtly) nagging their parents to buy this stuff in stores - and of course there's a whole raft of hallowe'en food and drink (not to mention the paper plates and napkins and decorations) which go with it all.
M
Sorry about the soap box folks, but surely it's better/nicer for parents to invest time etc in the kids than just throwing money at the situation - and money which is sometimes ill-spent and ill-afforded? Old clothes can be recycled into costumes, it doesn't take much imagination and implementation; and it shows the children how to make 'something out of nothing'. It's almost as bad as living on convenience food - not a good example and not one I'm likely to follow.
Ok, so maybe making elaborate costumes is not for everyone, but pool resources and strengthen community relationships at the same time - win win.
The food doesn't need to be bought in, and many of the decorations can be made at home too - I reckon if you have to have a party etc, this could be the route with most fun and least harm.

Getting back to all this hallowe'en lark - I won't celebrate the dark side, and I won't celebrate death - which is sometimes unbearably negative.

Enough said.

Em

As I said Boris years and years ago and things change, some of us move with the times and appreciate that these “cheap tacky costumes” are actually what our children/grandchildren want and shall I tell you why !! they want to be just like their friends they don’t want individuality.

I bow to your more superior knowledge that a homemade outfit is “usually” actively worn, having 3 children and 7 grandchildren what would I know other than a child has a favourite toy/outfit which is actively used/worn for about a week if you are lucky.

What makes you say I would think people would be better occupied doing something pointless and aimless or maybe selfish with their time, I certainly don’t have the time to be any of these things as much of my time is spent caring for my 7 grandchildren and time and love is something they are ALL given plenty of, is that pointless, aimless and selfish ?

As for being able to sew, yes I can and have all the requisites to do so, if you read my previous post it clearly states that I have/did and as I said times move on we are not all stuck in the 70’s.

Just for your info... At our party last year...Yes we did buy in quite a lot of food....although I did bake quite a lot too with help from my grand children...and others.
I did buy LOTS of ready made decorations.
As no doubt you have seen in my pics...that's why you mentioned it ???

No we didn't make any costumes...they were all bought in from various shops..amazon etc.
I could afford it.

I think maybe you are remembering bringing up your daughter...who went to boarding school..so that meant you had plenty of time to sew and make decorations???

I worked, I had three children..with an additional three to look after for a few years...a husband who worked away. I was a carer for elderly grandmother and terminally ill father.

So whilst I could sew and and if I had to,did make fancy dress costumes... But if I could buy them I would, just as I would buy ready made food and decorations for parties!!
I had more important things to do with my time.
I live in the real world.

[Frank Manning]

I have a foot in both camps. It is fun for the children, and we did have a laugh with some of them who came round. However it is also a marketing dream for sellers of cheap 'tat', and they hype it up, to con people into thinking it is a must.

On a more sober reflective note, many churches will be singing 'For all the saints' this morning, and congregations will have the chance to remember lost friends and family. It is actually 'All Souls', and nothing to do with witches.

Bah humbug!

[Boris+]

Hi Sue,

I didn't mean to touch a sore point - and if I did (from your point of view), then apologies.

I'm not going to answer all the points you made as I think it won't do this thread any good; other than to say that for me there is absolutely nothing wrong with old values. People who maintain old values are not living in the past - it's very easy to live in the present and embrace the future and still maintain old values.

Part of this is imparting to the younger generation and children alike a practical ability and clamping down on being part of 'the throwaway society'. From my point of view, going to a shop and buying convenience food and ready made outfits is the thin end of the wedge. As much as is practicable I won't do that - and for me ..... my way of doing things has paid dividends.

So, I apologise if I caused you any discomfort, stress, annoyance or anguish, and hope you have a great day today.

-----------------

Hi Alan,

I like your choice of words - very apt.

Em

[kaymar]

I have a foot in both camps. It is fun for the children, and we did have a laugh with some of them who came round. However it is also a marketing dream for sellers of cheap 'tat', and they hype it up, to con people into thinking it is a must.

On a more sober reflective note, many churches will be singing 'For all the saints' this morning, and congregations will have the chance to remember lost friends and family. It is actually 'All Souls', and nothing to do with witches.

Bah humbug!

Hallelujah!

[Manoverboard]

On reflection, perhaps "celebrate" is the wrong word - "glamourise" is probably more what I am thinking

Shouldn't ' participate ' be the most important word ?

Those that do are not generally looking for hidden deep religious meanings but simply a day of fun to enjoy with their family and circle of friends ... if so then that has to be a whole lot better than sitting at home dabbing on the X Box or watching violent videos.

... going to a shop and buying ... ready made outfits is the thin end of the wedge.

But surely most children feel more at ease if they are all wearing the same stuff, being the odd one out is possibly their worst nightmare.