Post Brexit: the reality

[Jack Staff]

Even if we lost all our EU trade we'd still be in the top 10, above most EU nations

To what purpose exactly?

[Mervyn and Trish]

Let's not forget our "little island" is the fifth largest economy in the world.

Not since the vote. We have been overtaken by the French (of all people!).

But only based on the lower value of the pound because the international figures are calculated in dollars. Nothing to do with a real change in output.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Even if we lost all our EU trade we'd still be in the top 10, above most EU nations

To what purpose exactly?

No purpose Jack, because it won't happen. Merely to point out as "little islands" go we do pretty well.

[Jack Staff]

No purpose Jack, because it won't happen. Merely to point out as "little islands" go we do pretty well.

We have done pretty well since we were the sick man of Europe in the seventies, strangely it all got better since we joined the EU.

[barney]

Even if we lost all our EU trade we'd still be in the top 10, above most EU nations

To what purpose exactly?

Jack, you're flogging a dead horse with this stance.

To vote to leave the EU was the right thing to do for this country and time will show that to be true.

The EU is still portrayed by some as a trading union but the truth is, that this is a bi-product of the political alliance.

I say to any Remainer that, if you want to be joined at the hip in a political alliance, dominated by Germany, then go and live there.
If you wish to live a an independent country, trading freely with the world and without harsh protective penalties against emerging third world nations, then the UK is the place for you.

Our Parliament should always be sovereign and that can never be the case in the EU.

That one single thing is enough to leave the EU in my opinion.

Then there are the twenty other reasons

The ONLY absolute positive to come out of the EU since inception is no conflict between member states.
Everything else has been a mish mash of failed policies, culminating in the bankruptcy of some member states.

[barney]

No purpose Jack, because it won't happen. Merely to point out as "little islands" go we do pretty well.

We have done pretty well since we were the sick man of Europe in the seventies, strangely it all got better since we joined the EU.

In spite of,not because of Jack.

If it was such a raging success, then why are most EU member states economies absolute basket cases.

Germany excepted, none of the others can hold a light to the UK.
Italy = skint
Spain = skint
Portugal = skint
Greece = headcase job
France = always on the brink

Then all of newer members who rely solely on heavy subsidies from the richer countries just to meet their minimum obligations.

A tiny bit of serious research would show you that all is not rosy in the EU garden.
That is why over 3.5 million of them are living here.

[Jack Staff]

I say to any Remainer that, if you want to be joined at the hip in a political alliance, dominated by Germany, then go and live there.
If you wish to live a an independent country, trading freely with the world and without harsh protective penalties against emerging third world nations, then the UK is the place for you.

Our Parliament should always be sovereign and that can never be the case in the EU.

Just to pick up on a couple of your points (I'd love to do all but that gets confusing).
At present I can easily go and live in Germany or any of the other 26 countries that I might like, but if you get your way I will have to stay here.
Without harsh protective penalties against emerging third world nations, China and the USA will devour us.

Our sovereign Parliament will need to be by-passed to invoke article 50. Not really taking back control, rather giving it to a dictatorship.

[towny44]

No purpose Jack, because it won't happen. Merely to point out as "little islands" go we do pretty well.

We have done pretty well since we were the sick man of Europe in the seventies, strangely it all got better since we joined the EU.

We were in the EU whilst our economy was going downhill through the seventies despite, or maybe because of, the efforts of a weak labour govt and strong disruptive trade unions, both of which were very anti EU at the time.
Not until Maggie reined in the power of the unions did our economy improve and it has continued to thrive despite the EU, and I feel confident it will do even better once we are out of theEU.

Answering your final comment above, a royal decree under our parliamentary system is merely a formal way for the Govt. to repeal certain measures, it certainly does not by pass our sovereignty,it is just part of it.

[Jack Staff]

No purpose Jack, because it won't happen. Merely to point out as "little islands" go we do pretty well.

We have done pretty well since we were the sick man of Europe in the seventies, strangely it all got better since we joined the EU.

In spite of,not because of Jack.

If it was such a raging success, then why are most EU member states economies absolute basket cases.

Germany excepted, none of the others can hold a light to the UK.
Italy = skint
Spain = skint
Portugal = skint
Greece = headcase job
France = always on the brink

Then all of newer members who rely solely on heavy subsidies from the richer countries just to meet their minimum obligations.

A tiny bit of serious research would show you that all is not rosy in the EU garden.
That is why over 3.5 million of them are living here.

Two of those economic basket cases are rated higher than us. One being France, which you state is always on the brink, that puts us over. The exchange rate since the 23rd proves you are right.
Of course not all is rosy, but hey, the grass is greener on the side?????

There are approximately the same number of British ex-pats on the continent. Mostly retired, who will have to come home and need increasing health care at the very time we will have ejected most of the health carers. These carers (and the others of course) are paying your future pension, the returning ex-pats will be spending it.

[Jack Staff]

No purpose Jack, because it won't happen. Merely to point out as "little islands" go we do pretty well.

We have done pretty well since we were the sick man of Europe in the seventies, strangely it all got better since we joined the EU.

We were in the EU whilst our economy was going downhill through the seventies despite, or maybe because of, the efforts of a weak labour govt and strong disruptive trade unions, both of which were very anti EU at the time.
Not until Maggie reined in the power of the unions did our economy improve and it has continued to thrive despite the EU, and I feel confident it will do even better once we are out of theEU.

Answering your final comment above, a royal decree under our parliamentary system is merely a formal way for the Govt. to repeal certain measures, it certainly does not by pass our sovereignty,it is just part of it.

Well I would just say it took the benefits of the EU a little while to turn round the inherent problems of our country at the time. Unions is a whole other subject and life is too short!

You are confusing our sovereignty with a sovereign Parliament.

[barney]

I'm not confusing anything with anything, my friend.

I know this subject very well.

It's all irrelevant now because the mandate from the electorate was to leave the EU.

The question was quite simple and there were only two boxes.

Remain or Leave.

More people ticked the Leave box so that's the end of it.

That is democracy.

I've endured years of a Tory government but have never voted Tory in my life.
However, I have no choice but to put up with it, because the majority voted for them.

I'll live

[Jack Staff]

I'm not confusing anything with anything, my friend.

I know this subject very well.

It's all irrelevant now because the mandate from the electorate was to leave the EU.

The question was quite simple and there were only two boxes.

Remain or Leave.

More people ticked the Leave box so that's the end of it.

That is democracy.

I've endured years of a Tory government but have never voted Tory in my life.
However, I have no choice but to put up with it, because the majority voted for them.

I'll live

Parliament will not get the opportunity to vote on Article 50 if the PM gets here way. Why? Because they will say NO.
So she will use the Royal prerogative, not our democratically elected representatives.
This is not democracy, it is rule by plebiscite.

[barney]

Absolutely, and about time as well

What makes the jumped up arrogant bas*ards think that they know best.

Because someone is an MP, it does not necessarily make them an expert in any particular subject.
The fact that Labour made Alan Johnson Chancellor of the Exchequer proves that one.

They have already had two bites of the cherry with the original vote in the House for the referendum ( 6 to 1 by the way in favour) and then had their individual vote on June 23rd.
How many more goes to they want to overturn democracy because they don't like the decision.

I've met numerous MPs in my working life and socially, and none has impressed me as being particularly bright.

[Jack Staff]

Absolutely, and about time as well

What makes the jumped up arrogant bas*ards think that they know best.

Because someone is an MP, it does not necessarily make them an expert in any particular subject.

The fact that Labour made Alan Johnson Chancellor of the Exchequer proves that one.

A couple of snippets of history, that I know you will be well aware of.
A certain German (well Austrian) gentleman was elected by plebiscite.
The last time Royal prerogative and sovereign Parliament disagreed, it did not end well.

[Jack Staff]

They have already had two bites of the cherry with the original vote in the House for the referendum ( 6 to 1 by the way in favour) and then had their individual vote on June 23rd.
How many more goes to they want to overturn democracy because they don't like the decision.

I've met numerous MPs in my working life and socially, and none has impressed me as being particularly bright.

Sorry, I missed this bit!
The original vote was about the referendum. Nothing more.
Yes they had their vote like everyone else.
Democracy is continuous.
We can certainly agree on your last point!

[oldbluefox]

There are approximately the same number of British ex-pats on the continent. Mostly retired, who will have to come home and need increasing health care at the very time we will have ejected most of the health carers. These carers (and the others of course) are paying your future pension, the returning ex-pats will be spending it.

Who said that? None of that has been decided upon and is mere scaremongering from some sectors of society which unsettles those workers who have come mainly from Eastern European countries and have made a very positive contribution to our society.
I also see no reason why UK nationals should not work abroad. There are Brits working the world over and the EU will be no exception. We're coming out of the EU, not pulling up the drawbridge even though that was what the Remainers would have had us all believe.

PS Welcome to the forum!!!

[Jack Staff]

There are approximately the same number of British ex-pats on the continent. Mostly retired, who will have to come home and need increasing health care at the very time we will have ejected most of the health carers. These carers (and the others of course) are paying your future pension, the returning ex-pats will be spending it.

Who said that? None of that has been decided upon and is mere scaremongering from some sectors of society which unsettles those workers who have come mainly from Eastern European countries and have made a very positive contribution to our society.
I also see no reason why UK nationals should not work abroad. There are Brits working the world over and the EU will be no exception. We're coming out of the EU, not pulling up the drawbridge even though that was what the Remainers would have had us all believe.

PS Welcome to the forum!!!

Thanks for the welcome!
I'm afraid it simply stands to reason. A lot of the Brexit vote was to get rid of Johnny Foreigner. If that is successful, we will lose most care staff now working in the UK, along with the fruit pickers, not to mention the doctors.
They will then no longer be contributing to the UK economy, paying into the government coffers.
Every other EU country will quite rightly do to our citizens as we do to theirs and kick out all the British immigrants, sorry I mean ex-pats. Particularly from Spain and France, lovely places to retire to. When they are back they will not contribute, as they are retired. Draining the government coffers.

You may say Brexit is not about the foreign ex-pats, sorry I mean immigrants, but that's what a lot of people thought. It may not be government policy yet, but now it seems it's OK for 'Englishmen' to beat up a pregnant women (tonights news).

I am amazed at how upset certain publications can get when Europeans say 'If you do that, we will do the same to you'.

[Silver_Shiney]

Not really taking back control, rather giving it to a dictatorship.

I suggest, rather, that we are taking back control instead of giving it to an unelected European dictatorship

[Not so ancient mariner]

Perhaps, but most of the arguments made have been very simplistic

[Jack Staff]

I suggest, rather, that we are taking back control instead of giving it to an unelected European dictatorship

Yes, a common mis-conception about the EU, because there is a grain of truth in it.
There are the MEP's that we all vote for (you did vote, didn't you?), and there are politicians 'put' there by their democratically elected government.
So some of them are, yes, unelected.
But however they got there, they are in a Parliament. So a democracy.
The United Kingdom is now at the whim of one woman. Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

[Silver_Shiney]

I'm afraid it simply stands to reason. A lot of the Brexit vote was to get rid of Johnny Foreigner. If that is successful, we will lose most care staff now working in the UK, along with the fruit pickers, not to mention the doctors.
They will then no longer be contributing to the UK economy, paying into the government coffers.
Every other EU country will quite rightly do to our citizens as we do to theirs and kick out all the British immigrants, sorry I mean ex-pats. Particularly from Spain and France, lovely places to retire to. When they are back they will not contribute, as they are retired. Draining the government coffers.

You may say Brexit is not about the foreign ex-pats, sorry I mean immigrants, but that's what a lot of people thought. It may not be government policy yet, but now it seems it's OK for 'Englishmen' to beat up a pregnant women (tonights news).

I am amazed at how upset certain publications can get when Europeans say 'If you do that, we will do the same to you'.

No, a lot of the "exit" vote was to stop unemployed spongers flooding over here and abusing our benefits system, and to put an end to interference in our laws and way of life from an unelected (by us, bar a few non-entity MEPs) government.

You talk of Mrs May as though she is the dictator - it follows, therefore, that any prime minister, elected to government by the public and then to that office by his or her peers, is a dictator. Sorry, I disagree. As for that nice Mr Hitler, ye may well have been elected by the public, but many evil men give the initial impression of being charismatic and benevolent. Had the Germans realised what he was like, they would never have chosen him

[Jack Staff]

No, a lot of the "exit" vote was to stop unemployed spongers flooding over here and abusing our benefits system, and to put an end to interference in our laws and way of life from an unelected (by us, bar a few non-entity MEPs) government.

We have quite enough unemployed spongers of our own. It is an established fact that legal immigrants contribute more than they take.

You talk of Mrs May as though she is the dictator - it follows, therefore, that any prime minister, elected to government by the public and then to that office by his or her peers, is a dictator. Sorry, I disagree.

No, it's just her, if she invokes Article 50, without the consent of our democratically elected Parliament. Previous Prime Ministers have not used the Royal prerogative to this type of purpose. So only her.

As for that nice Mr Hitler, ye may well have been elected by the public, but many evil men give the initial impression of being charismatic and benevolent. Had the Germans realised what he was like, they would never have chosen him

Which is why referendums are banned in Germany.

[Jack Staff]

............., and to put an end to interference in our laws and way of life from an unelected (by us, bar a few non-entity MEPs) government.

Sorry, missed this bit.
What you say is akin to a Yorkshire man saying a Lancashire MP "is unelected by us".
It's time to get over these twentieth century tribal groupings.

[Silver_Shiney]

We have quite enough unemployed spongers of our own. It is an established fact that legal immigrants contribute more than they take.

Correct - but as you are perfectly well aware, I said"spongers", NOT legal immigrants. Nowhere have I said that those who have come here to take up employment should be repatriated. A recent case is that bloke from France who came over here supposedly to do a university course, brought a huge family with him and is demanding a huge house to live in, which you and I are expected to fund. What is he contributing to this nation's economy?

No, it's just her, if she invokes Article 50, without the consent of our democratically elected Parliament. Previous Prime Ministers have not used the Royal prerogative to this type of purpose. So only her.

It will be our democratically elected government who invoke Article 50, as mandated by the majority will of the electorate.

Which is why referendums are banned in Germany.

My point stands. Besides, Germany have elections, which are really just a referendum. Referendum - do you want in Europe or out? Election - do you want this candidate to represent you or that candidate? Essentially no difference.

[Onelife]

[quote="oldbluefox"][quote="Jack Staff"]

There are approximately the same number of British ex-pats on the continent. Mostly retired, who will have to come home and need increasing health care at the very time we will have ejected most of the health carers. These carers (and the others of course) are paying your future pension, the returning ex-pats will be spending it.[/quote
Who said that? None of that has been decided upon and is mere scaremongering from some sectors of society which unsettles those workers who have come mainly from Eastern European countries and have made a very positive contribution to our society.
I also see no reason why UK nationals should not work abroad. There are Brits working the world over and the EU will be no exception. We're coming out of the EU, not pulling up the drawbridge even though that was what the Remainers would have had us all believe.

PS Welcome to the forum!!! [/quote

HI Jack...for your information Re: "returning expats will be spending it"

If you are moving abroad on a permanent basis, you will no longer automatically be entitled to medical treatment under normal NHS rules. This is because the NHS is a residence-based healthcare system. You’ll have to notify your GP so that you and your family can be removed from the NHS register.
Most people will no longer be entitled to use their UK-issued European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to access healthcare in Europe, however there are a few exceptions. Read our EHIC guide for more detailed information.

NHS choices.

Regards

Keith