Post Brexit: the reality

[Jack Staff]

We have quite enough unemployed spongers of our own. It is an established fact that legal immigrants contribute more than they take.

Correct - but as you are perfectly well aware, I said"spongers", NOT legal immigrants. Nowhere have I said that those who have come here to take up employment should be repatriated. A recent case is that bloke from France who came over here supposedly to do a university course, brought a huge family with him and is demanding a huge house to live in, which you and I are expected to fund. What is he contributing to this nation's economy?

I did see that story, the fact is it only made the comic because they were black, they never mentioned that though because that would be racist, they just put a big picture front and centre.
You are willing to risk our country over one family?

No, it's just her, if she invokes Article 50, without the consent of our democratically elected Parliament. Previous Prime Ministers have not used the Royal prerogative to this type of purpose. So only her.

It will be our democratically elected government who invoke Article 50, as mandated by the majority will of the electorate.

That is going through the courts right now, so we will have to take a rain check for the moment.

Which is why referendums are banned in Germany.

My point stands. Besides, Germany have elections, which are really just a referendum. Referendum - do you want in Europe or out? Election - do you want this candidate to represent you or that candidate? Essentially no difference.

Referendum - do you want in Europe or out? He wants £350m for the NHS, she wants border control, they want free trade, the kids just want to give Cameron a kicking, the OAP's want it back to how it was in their day.
Election - do you want this candidate to represent you or that candidate? All the elected candidates get together and decide that (in this example) the kids and the OAPs should be ignored, work out that we will not get that £350m for the NHS, realise we could have proper border control if we funded it properly. So it boils down to free trade and as most of our trade is with the free trade of the EU, they come the complete opposite decision.

[Silver_Shiney]

You are very selective about your arguments, Jack. I think we had better agree to disagree before we fall out.

[towny44]

............., and to put an end to interference in our laws and way of life from an unelected (by us, bar a few non-entity MEPs) government.

Sorry, missed this bit.
What you say is akin to a Yorkshire man saying a Lancashire MP "is unelected by us".
It's time to get over these twentieth century tribal groupings.

You mean like the SNP's tribal grouping?

[Jack Staff]

You are very selective about your arguments, Jack. I think we had better agree to disagree before we fall out.

I thought it was you selecting the points for me to answer. Whatever, I would not like to fall out because there is far too much of that sort of thing going on at the moment. Goodnight.

[Jack Staff]

............., and to put an end to interference in our laws and way of life from an unelected (by us, bar a few non-entity MEPs) government.

Sorry, missed this bit.
What you say is akin to a Yorkshire man saying a Lancashire MP "is unelected by us".
It's time to get over these twentieth century tribal groupings.

You mean like the SNP's tribal grouping?

Hmmmmm, good question!
Bit too late in the evening for constitutional legalities.
Good night.

[Frank Manning]

I should give it up Jack, I have done.

The Brexiteers are 'heady' with victory, and busy slapping each other on the back. Whatever happens now, nothing any of the 16 million of us who wanted to remain will say will get them away from their self congratulatory arguments.

[Silver_Shiney]

I should give it up Jack, I have done.

The Brexiteers are 'heady' with victory, and busy slapping each other on the back. Whatever happens now, nothing any of the 16 million of us who wanted to remain will say will get them away from their self congratulatory arguments.

What you really mean, Frank, is that the exit camp cannot get away from the vociferous Remainders continually crying "foul". I have seen no gloating from this camp. It is not a matter for gloating or self-congratulation, it is a matter of getting on with a democratic decision and making the best of the opportunities available to us once we are out.

I remind you that had the vote gone the other way, the exit camp could have unjustifiably made the same sort of complaint which the remain camp would rightly decry. I keep pointing this out to you but you never acknowledge (at least, I haven't seen an acknowledgement).

Incidentally, I am given to understand that Mr Garage us planning on moving to Germany...

[barney]

Can we get one simple fact absolutely straight here.

The vote was never to leave Europe.

The vote was to remain in or leave the EU.

Very different things.

I love Europe and the diversity of it.

I don't like the political governance of the EU.

You could give me twenty reasons to stay and I could give you twenty reasons to leave.
It's all about how you interpret the situation.

Glass full / Glass empty. ?

[oldbluefox]

The Brexiteers are 'heady' with victory, and busy slapping each other on the back.

Not true, Frank. I have not witnessed any back slapping. What I have noticed is that the predicted Armageddon predicted by Cameron, Osborne & Co has yet to materialise.

What you really mean, Frank, is that the exit camp cannot get away from the vociferous Remainders continually crying "foul". I have seen no gloating from this camp. It is not a matter for gloating or self-congratulation, it is a matter of getting on with a democratic decision and making the best of the opportunities available to us once we are out.

Absolutely. Time for the Remainers to give it a rest because I find their continual whingeing becoming tiresome. The rhetoric coming from some quarters of the political elite to challenge the result because it didn't concur with their own opinion and the sight of that ranting, delirious clown in the pink beret trying to force his opinions on the rest of us simply irritates me. Some of the claims being made simply border on the fanciful but I do find it comical that Remainers know my motivation for voting as I did, based on age. Now that's clever but just goes to show some of the illogical neurosis which derives from their disappointment.
I am pleased that on such an emotive issue the red pen has not been needed but the argument goes round in circles and maybe it's time to move on. Invoke Article 50.

[oldbluefox]

Can we get one simple fact absolutely straight here.

The vote was never to leave Europe.

The vote was to remain in or leave the EU.

There seems to be some confusion around this issue, whether accidental or intentional............................

[Frank Manning]

See what I mean Jack? Some aren't even reading their own posts on here. 'spect I'll get banned soon!

[barney]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ial-crisis

Come on Frank, read the Guardian link and then tell me we are better off in the circus that the EU, in it's present form has become.
The Guardian by the way, not the Daily Wail or the Express.
The most pro EU paper in the land.

As I said previously, I respect the views of others, even when they are obviously incorrect, but please, please don't try and pretend that all about the EU is good.

It is very slowly eating itself with it's dictatorial attitude to member countries.
Remember many of the Eastern Bloc members had years of Soviet oppression, they will not tolerate EU oppression.

EDIT < Jack's turn

[Jack Staff]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ial-crisis

Come on Frank, read the Guardian link and then tell me we are better off in the circus that the EU, in it's present form has become.
The Guardian by the way, not the Daily Wail or the Express.
The most pro EU paper in the land.

As I said previously, I respect the views of others, even when they are obviously incorrect, but please, please don't try and pretend that all about the EU is good.

It is very slowly eating itself with it's dictatorial attitude to member countries.
Remember many of the Eastern Bloc members had years of Soviet oppression, they will not tolerate EU oppression.

EDIT < Jack's turn

Thank you for the invitation Barney
The Guirdian is a newspaper and publishes lots of pieces on the EU. As we both know it is more pro than anti, so I could counter with many more pieces that offer a different argument.
Of course not everything about the EU is good. It's just better than the alternative.
It's "dictatorial attitude to member countries" is because it's a parliament that made decisions. If not, you would say it was toothless.
Every Eastern Bloc country I've visited loves the EU.

[Jack Staff]

I should give it up Jack, I have done.

The Brexiteers are 'heady' with victory, and busy slapping each other on the back. Whatever happens now, nothing any of the 16 million of us who wanted to remain will say will get them away from their self congratulatory arguments.

I may consider giving up as they take me off to the camp for 're-education', that might be wise.
They certainly have no idea of what's coming down the tracks for them, well for all of us.
"I told you so" will be a hollow victory.

[Jack Staff]

The Brexiteers are 'heady' with victory, and busy slapping each other on the back.

Not true, Frank. I have not witnessed any back slapping. What I have noticed is that the predicted Armageddon predicted by Cameron, Osborne & Co has yet to materialise.

That's because Brexit has not happened yet. It is at least two years away yet.

What you really mean, Frank, is that the exit camp cannot get away from the vociferous Remainders continually crying "foul". I have seen no gloating from this camp. It is not a matter for gloating or self-congratulation, it is a matter of getting on with a democratic decision and making the best of the opportunities available to us once we are out.

Absolutely. Time for the Remainers to give it a rest because I find their continual whingeing becoming tiresome. The rhetoric coming from some quarters of the political elite to challenge the result because it didn't concur with their own opinion and the sight of that ranting, delirious clown in the pink beret trying to force his opinions on the rest of us simply irritates me. Some of the claims being made simply border on the fanciful but I do find it comical that Remainers know my motivation for voting as I did, based on age. Now that's clever but just goes to show some of the illogical neurosis which derives from their disappointment.
I am pleased that on such an emotive issue the red pen has not been needed but the argument goes round in circles and maybe it's time to move on. Invoke Article 50.

For the last 41 years I have wished the Quitters would have given it a rest and got on with it.

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two thirds to one third, that ends it."
Nigel Farage, Daily Mirror, 16 May 2016

.

[oldbluefox]

Jack, in post 309 you say:

There are approximately the same number of British ex-pats on the continent. Mostly retired, who will have to come home and need increasing health care at the very time we will have ejected most of the health carers. These carers (and the others of course) are paying your future pension, the returning ex-pats will be spending it.

.........................but now you say:

That's because Brexit has not happened yet. It is at least two years away yet.
.

Where did you get the idea from that all the Brits currently living abroad and all the EU nationals who have come here for work will all have to return to their native lands if you realise that Brexit has not happened yet? In fact no decision either way has been made and will likely not be made until negotiations have been held.

[Mervyn and Trish]

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two thirds to one third, that ends it."
Nigel Farage, Daily Mirror, 16 May 2016 .

Jack, so Nigel Farage is your hero now?

If it had ended 52-48 the other way you'd be quoting that and shouting for a re-run would you?

The campaign's over.

We've voted. To those who couldn't be bothered to vote and now moan, tough.

To Call Me Dave and Ozzie who thought it was a done deal, and indeed would never have called the referendum if they thought they'd lose, sorry you misread the majority of the British people and you lost. The vote and your jobs. Serves you right for your astounding arrogance.

Brexit won.

Okay the title of this thread is wrong, we're not post Brexit but we are post the vote.

So let's move on.

I don't pretend everything will be rosy in the next few years but we made our choice and now we'll make it work without having to look over our shoulder at Juncker and Co's latest fantasies. Just this morning he's decided (un-elected by me, you or anyone else in the UK) that the EU needs to spend an ever bigger pile of money on infrastructure projects. Does that mean a third runway at Heathrow? Does that mean HS2? Does that mean better East / West roads to link up the north of England? Does that mean new power stations to replace the ones the EU forced us to close? No, none of the above? Does it mean if we stayed we'd get a bigger bill? Yes.

So I'm glad we're leaving this club where some of the members pay the bills and the others get the toys.

[oldbluefox]

For the last 41 years I have wished the Quitters would have given it a rest and got on with it.

That was probably me. I hate the EU with a vengeance. I was happy with the Common Market until the politicians got hold of it and turned it into something I didn't want.
I'm also glad we're leaving this club where some of the members pay the bills and the others get the toys. Very few toys made it up here.

[oldbluefox]

The gap would have been even greater were it not for the Gibraltarians who, understandably, were keen to remain in the EU.

[Jack Staff]

For the last 41 years I have wished the Quitters would have given it a rest and got on with it.

That was probably me. I hate the EU with a vengeance. I was happy with the Common Market until the politicians got hold of it and turned it into something I didn't want.
I'm also glad we're leaving this club where some of the members pay the bills and the others get the toys. Very few toys made it up here.

Fair enough. So after all those years you will understand (though disagree) with my feelings.

[oldbluefox]

Indeed. I don't think there is one of us who doesn't appreciate the depth of feeling (however much we disagree) but the die has been cast and the outcome was for Brexit. We should now be working as a nation to make it a success from which we could ALL benefit, not just those in chosen locations.

[Jack Staff]

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two thirds to one third, that ends it."
Nigel Farage, Daily Mirror, 16 May 2016 .

Jack, so Nigel Farage is your hero now?

Only as far as this quote

If it had ended 52-48 the other way you'd be quoting that and shouting for a re-run would you?

It did. Of course not, that would be the result I wanted. Shouting for a re-run would be up to you.

The campaign's over.

We've voted. To those who couldn't be bothered to vote and now moan, tough.

That battle might be over, but those who think we are just going to sail off into the sunlit uplands are very much mistaken. I voted. I always vote.

To Call Me Dave and Ozzie who thought it was a done deal, and indeed would never have called the referendum if they thought they'd lose, sorry you misread the majority of the British people and you lost. The vote and your jobs. Serves you right for your astounding arrogance.

Spot on. Couldn't agree more.

Brexit won.

Britain lost.

Okay the title of this thread is wrong, we're not post Brexit but we are post the vote.

So let's move on.

I don't pretend everything will be rosy in the next few years but we made our choice and now we'll make it work without having to look over our shoulder at Juncker and Co's latest fantasies. Just this morning he's decided (un-elected by me, you or anyone else in the UK) that the EU needs to spend an ever bigger pile of money on infrastructure projects. Does that mean a third runway at Heathrow? Does that mean HS2? Does that mean better East / West roads to link up the north of England? Does that mean new power stations to replace the ones the EU forced us to close? No, none of the above? Does it mean if we stayed we'd get a bigger bill? Yes.

So I'm glad we're leaving this club where some of the members pay the bills and the others get the toys.

Unfortunately it is not just the next few years. Until we rejoin, the climate deniers will have a field day building those coal fired power stations, but that's OK because the acid rain falls on Norway. The Tories said no third runway, no ifs, no buts and they always keep to their word. I think the HS3 rail line has been canceled since the vote as there are no longer funds? HS2 will probably be canceled too, now the Prime Minister no longer lives in Oxfordshire.
Just because we won't have such a big bill does not mean we will be richer. We are now in a race with Greece to the bottom.

[barney]

An interesting point about holding a referendum is when the result doesn't go how you hoped it would.

My brother owned a business in Malta for many years (a dive school) and we have been there many, many times.

They held a referendum to join in 2003.
They result was 54% to join & 46% not to join, so not a million miles away from our result and hardly overwhelming.
Crucially, only 48% of eligible voters bothered to turn up and vote.
So, by default,the side that lost claimed that more didn't agree with joining the EU than did.
They subsequently joined in 2004.

There was great support for the EU for about the first 8 or nine years as they were getting a comparative fortune for building projects, infrastructure etc.
Everywhere you looked, there where EU flags and signs saying funded by the EU.
Even a new Aquarium in Qarwa ?
The lift from the cruise terminal to Upper Barrakka gardens was EU funded.
So, they were doing nicely out of it.

Then the political reality hit them, particularly on immigration from Africa.
There are now many more dissenting voices and a movement to actually look at some form of trying to leave.

My brother moved there 25 years ago and loved the quirkiness of it and that is was quite different to anywhere else.
It has quickly become part of the homogenised EU project and he no longer enjoys his retirement there.
Last year, he sold his business for health reasons.
In November this year, he is moving lock stock and barrel to Monserrat in the Caribbean.
He's been there quite a few times and thinks his quality of life will be much better.

By dragging Malta into the 21st century, much of the old charm has been lost.
Would Malta have thrived if it never joined the EU?
We'll never know.
But what we do know is those who campaigned against joining 12 years ago are still banging on about it.
So, I expect UK voter who voted to Remain will never give up.

[oldbluefox]

Just because we won't have such a big bill does not mean we will be richer.

Surely we will have that same amount of money but instead of sending it to Brussels who will send some of it back and tell us how it should be spent we will determine how it will be spent for ourselves and still have some left over. We will still need to maintain subsidies to farmers, fishermen etc but instead of coming out of the EU it will come directly from our own government.
Meanwhile we will not be supporting the lavish lifestyle of those in Brussels and Strasburg.

Btw, who said we are returning to coal-fired power stations? I must have missed that one.........................
As for HS2, the third runway etc I can think of plenty of areas in our fair country where the money could be better spent. We still have farmers up here who have to make their returns online and don't have internet access. Considering we are such a small country that is appalling. Don't get me on about infrastructure otherwise I'll be here all day. Fine for those who receive all the funding for the government's pet projects.

[Jack Staff]

An interesting point about holding a referendum is when the result doesn't go how you hoped it would.

My brother owned a business in Malta for many years (a dive school) and we have been there many, many times.

They held a referendum to join in 2003.
They result was 54% to join & 46% not to join, so not a million miles away from our result and hardly overwhelming.
Crucially, only 48% of eligible voters bothered to turn up and vote.
So, by default,the side that lost claimed that more didn't agree with joining the EU than did.
They subsequently joined in 2004.

There was great support for the EU for about the first 8 or nine years as they were getting a comparative fortune for building projects, infrastructure etc.
Everywhere you looked, there where EU flags and signs saying funded by the EU.
Even a new Aquarium in Qarwa ?
The lift from the cruise terminal to Upper Barrakka gardens was EU funded.
So, they were doing nicely out of it.

Then the political reality hit them, particularly on immigration from Africa.
There are now many more dissenting voices and a movement to actually look at some form of trying to leave.

My brother moved there 25 years ago and loved the quirkiness of it and that is was quite different to anywhere else.
It has quickly become part of the homogenised EU project and he no longer enjoys his retirement there.
Last year, he sold his business for health reasons.
In November this year, he is moving lock stock and barrel to Monserrat in the Caribbean.
He's been there quite a few times and thinks his quality of life will be much better.

By dragging Malta into the 21st century, much of the old charm has been lost.
Would Malta have thrived if it never joined the EU?
We'll never know.
But what we do know is those who campaigned against joining 12 years ago are still banging on about it.
So, I expect UK voter who voted to Remain will never give up.

You are right about never giving up. The Quitters didn't.

I love Malta. I used to work there during the 90's. It was wonderful, the roads had more holes than not, which meant no one bought a new car as it would be trashed in a week! The Buses and trucks have gone into legend. The mood amongst my Maltese colleagues was they were joining the EU, done deal, no need to go and vote about it.
Since they joined the roads are renewed, everyone has new cars, the lift is finally fixed, the trucks and buses have gone. It's no longer the same place. Should we have made them live in a theme park for our pleasure? The same thing now applies to Cuba.
Just a couple of years ago I was standing on the main street in Valletta and saw bus loads of illegal immigrants marched into the court house there.
If Malta left the EU, it would still be in the middle of the Med, the immigrants would still come. Only the Maltese would have to solve the problem all by themselves. Bit like our problem really, how are we going to cope without the help of our neighbours stopping (a lot of) them before the channel?
People are missing the point that these immigrants are illegal already. Taking control to make new laws is futile.