Brexit

[Mervyn and Trish]

I agree.

I liked the way Boris shot our Scottish MP friend down in flames with, 'if you want to get rid of me let's have a general election'...........It's all gone quiet over there. And why, because they know they would stand a chance.

Of course if the Scots want independence there's another border issue! Especially if they want independence and to stay in the EU. Do you think Mrs Krankie has thought this through, beyond wanting to be crowned Queen of Scotland?

The Scots don't have a GFA, unless Krankie intends having a Bannockburn restoration deal.

It's still a border. Maybe we can resurrect Hadrian's Wall?

[oldbluefox]

That's not even mildly amusing.
You usually do better.
Time to up your game if you want to match Johnson on the joke stakes

Well thanks for your lack of appreciation Barney. So one most probably script writer joke from BOJO, TRUMP my months of toil

Never mind Ray. It's still a good photo of your garden gate.

[oldbluefox]

It concerns me that the SNP will use their numbers to force through staying in the EU, hold a referendum on independence which they then win and leave the rest of the UK with remaining in the EU, something which the majority did not vote for.

[Gill W]

DETAIL OF proposed Irish Border arrangement



71183561_2115064982133186_7330564049538646016_n.jpg

My friend told me the other day that her Irish friend said that they should just put a gate in

[barney]

I think that the EU are now seeing the UK under Johnson as a threat on their doorstep.
Under May, they patted her on the head and carried on as normal.
The stakes are now much higher.

[towny44]

Varadker says the new proposal does not provide the security the backstop would supply, and would need customs controls, so he can't support it as it is. Does he not realise that to protect the sanctity of their sacred single market the EU will demand a border with NI in the event of no deal. Or does he just not believe that Boris will defy parliament and leave with no deal.

[barney]

He doesn't believe we will ever really leave, nor do Brussels and many other European countries.
They seriously cannot believe that we would want to leave such a wonderful organisation.

[Stephen]

Brussels can huff and puff as much as they like. Come the 31st wer'e off.......hopefully. They can pick the bones out of that. I'm not sure why we keep on grovelling to them and letting them call all the shots anyway like some bullied school child. Just pay what we think we owe them and tell them they had their chance to be reasonable and then cut the apron strings. They'll soon change they're minds about trading once the millions stop rolling in each week.

[Mervyn and Trish]

The EU and the Irish PM still don't get it, after 3 years. Particularly the Irish PM.

He's in EU veto mode. He believes that if he vetoes Boris's plan it'll all be alright. It won't. It will be No Deal, whether that is October 31st or somewhere in 2020. And that will have far worse consequences for the Irish border than Boris's imperfect proposal. And of course if we left with Boris's imperfect deal and then did a free trade deal with the EU it wouldn't be an issue anyway. But of course they wont' have that. Instead for all their talk of support they'll hang Ireland out to dry.

Ireland population 4.8 million. Luxembourg population 602,000. They believe they can use the veto to dictate to the rest of the 511 million in the EU. And under the present rules they can. Except the one thing they can't veto is us leaving. That's our decision, though to hear the Eurocrats you wouldn't think so.

They keep referring to TM's WA as the deal we already have. It's not a deal. It was a draft agreement drawn up by negotiators for ratification by our parliament and the EU parliament. They accepted it. We didn't. If that had been the other way round would they still have been calling it the deal?

[Gill W]

I went out for the day yesterday.

When I came back I was quite stunned at some of the comments I saw, and have thought long and hard about some of the things that were said, and, to be honest, even after reflection, I'm still quite disturbed.

The rampant British exceptionalism (actually it's English exceptionalism), the apparent lack of concern about breaking up the Union that has lasted 300 years - all quite astonishing really, although par for the course on this thread.

But it's the Irish Border that has blown me away.

If two nations are in a different customs territory, you have to have a border with customs checks. Even if Johnson says the checks happen at a 'designated location away from the border, it's still not an open border, you have just moved the border to a different location.

The Good Friday Agreement is an International Treaty that has kept people safe for more than 20 years. I fully understand why the EU, and especially Ireland are doing everything they can the preserve the Good Friday Agreement. The suggestion, on this forum that their actions are to appease terrorists, is quite frankly, beyond words.

Its the UK that wants to leave the EU. If we choose to leave in such a way that breaks the GFA, that is on the UK, not the EU.

On a different note, I see Rory Stewart has left the Conservative Party. It is very telling that anybody who is half way decent, finds that they can no longer continue to be a member of the Conservatives in its current form.

[Mervyn and Trish]

I'm sorry you don't like my choice of words Gill, because it was me that said "appease terrorists".

Maybe I misused the words, but surely it is the threat of terrorists returning that makes everyone so twitchy about the border issue? If that threat wasn't there would we be worrying about a border? Borders exist elsewhere without the threat of terrorism. That's what I meant about appeasement. But I apologise if its the wrong word.

However, moving forward can you see any way of keeping the border fully open, keeping the UK intact and actually leaving the EU, because I can't?

No deal means a border.

Boris's deal means a border, though not as visible.

Theresa's (rejected three times) deal means a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Breaking up the UK. Which is definitely not what I for one want.

The only solution to satisfy the Irish (both sides of the border) and the EU, would be if we scrapped Brexit. Even that wouldn't actually really satisfy the Irish Republicans because what they want is a united Ireland outside the UK.

Now I know you're quite open that what you would like is no Brexit. But given the government's promised task is to deliver Brexit, how would you propose they do that?

And if they do, can you be confident those that want to break up the UK by re-unifying Ireland or pursuing independence for Scotland will go away? Because both issues were festering long before Brexit was even a thought.

Or do the unwritten words in the GFA actually mean the UK is not free to leave the EU at any time under any circumstances?

[towny44]

Gill, can you please tell us the comments that specifically caused you so much concern so that we can better respond and discuss your concerns.

[Manoverboard]

The Irish question will be resolved by the Irish because they are the experts whereas the rest of us have little appreciation of the finer points nor the deep routed passions involved other than the propaganda shown on TV or printed in the Press.

Borders at any border are NOT actually mandatory and as I posted umpteen moons ago technical solutions can be found as they were, for example, with Switzerland. Where there's a will there's a way but that won't stop Remainers attempting to prevent us leaving.

[barney]

Gill, can you please tell us the comments that specifically caused you so much concern so that we can better respond and discuss your concerns.

I expect I'm the guilty person for this comment about keeping nations tied in against their will because its always been like that.

I'll say again, if any UK nation decided by majority referendum that they wished to leave the union, then I'd be OK with that.

It's that old fashioned democracy that keeps raising it's head.

A great example is Gibraltar.
They had a referendum on whether to remain a British territory or rescind to Spain.
They chose to be British.
If there was another vote after we have left the EU to change things and go with Spain, then that is their choice.
I'd be fine with that.
Maybe Gill would oppose it because it changes things.
Well, bad news.
There is nothing as constant as change.

[david63]

An interesting comment from Steve Baker in the latest instalment from Scotland - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49936352 - "All this means is that government will obey the law. It does not mean we will extend. It does not mean we will stay in the EU beyond 31 October. We will leave."

So basically all BoJo has to is send the letter and he will have complied with the Benn Act but it does not stop him/us leaving.

Prepare for round 99 (or whatever number we are up to) in the courts next week!!

[barney]

I really can't see how Johnson can square this circle unless he has a commitment from one of the 27 that they will oppose any extension.
Hungary maybe.
They are clearly out of step with Brussels.

Another alternative is that Johnson states very clearly that an extension may be irrelevant because if he wins a majority in the next election, he will leave anyway, irrespective of what they say.

Maybe his proposal will look more attractive given the alternative.

[Ray Scully]

The Irish question will be resolved by the Irish because they are the experts

Not to sure about that Moby I understand that the Americans and the EU played a large part in brokering the GFA. Being of Irish decent and from Liverpool, I have an attachment to Irish affairs perhaps not shared by those who view things more remotely. Also at the end of the troubles ex colleagues took up positions in the north. Their view today is that the resentments are still there but being contained and will take generations of peaceful coexistence to be eradicated. The risks being those who still prescribe to terrorism, and the criminal elements who will make money from any breakdown in law and order are just looking for an excuse to resume their activities.

[Stephen]

Nice to see the Italians sticking up for good old Blighty

[barney]

The Irish question will be resolved by the Irish because they are the experts

Not to sure about that Moby I understand that the Americans and the EU played a large part in brokering the GFA. Being of Irish decent and from Liverpool, I have an attachment to Irish affairs perhaps not shared by those who view things more remotely. Also at the end of the troubles ex colleagues took up positions in the north. Their view today is that the resentments are still there but being contained and will take generations of peaceful coexistence to be eradicated. The risks being those who still prescribe to terrorism, and the criminal elements who will make money from any breakdown in law and order are just looking for an excuse to resume their activities.

So, in a nutshell, the UK can never exit the EU because it would be open season for criminals and terrorists.
Wish they had told my mum and dad that when they voted to stay in back in the 70s.

[Ray Scully]

The Irish question will be resolved by the Irish because they are the experts

Not to sure about that Moby I understand that the Americans and the EU played a large part in brokering the GFA. Being of Irish decent and from Liverpool, I have an attachment to Irish affairs perhaps not shared by those who view things more remotely. Also at the end of the troubles ex colleagues took up positions in the north. Their view today is that the resentments are still there but being contained and will take generations of peaceful coexistence to be eradicated. The risks being those who still prescribe to terrorism, and the criminal elements who will make money from any breakdown in law and order are just looking for an excuse to resume their activities.

So, in a nutshell, the UK can never exit the EU because it would be open season for criminals and terrorists.
Wish they had told my mum and dad that when they voted to stay in back in the 70s.

Barney the troubles post dates the 70s An even greater pity is that the complexities and difficulties were never really discussed at the time of the referendum. Soo are we in a situation of choosing peoples lives or fulfilling an ideology ??

[Manoverboard]

The Irish question will be resolved by the Irish because they are the experts

Not to sure about that Moby I understand that the Americans and the EU played a large part in brokering the GFA. Being of Irish decent and from Liverpool, I have an attachment to Irish affairs perhaps not shared by those who view things more remotely. Also at the end of the troubles ex colleagues took up positions in the north. Their view today is that the resentments are still there but being contained and will take generations of peaceful coexistence to be eradicated. The risks being those who still prescribe to terrorism, and the criminal elements who will make money from any breakdown in law and order are just looking for an excuse to resume their activities.

I accept that Ray … I was simply saying that the Irish ( those who are directly involved and have to live with the consequences ) will decide on the resolution now or at a later date. I think we were in agreement but tackling it from different angles. My take on the EU and Americans being involved was because, unlike the English, they were trusted by both sides of the divide.

ps … I am fairly knowledgeable, first hand, at the tourist level but that's it basically.

pps … the troubles actually started c 1919 not in the seventies.

[towny44]

Ray you may have Irish roots but that does not entitle you, or the assumed 90% of US citizens who claim Irish ancestry, to assume only you can be allowed to resolve the Irish question.
My understanding of the border post concerns stems from their use by UK troops as a method of preventing IRA terrorists sneaking in or out of NI to place their bombs. Having customs clearance away from the border would surely resolve this issue to any right minded individual and should in no way be used as an excuse to suggest that it undermines the GFA.

[Ray Scully]

Ray you may have Irish roots but that does not entitle you, or the assumed 90% of US citizens who claim Irish ancestry, to assume only you can be allowed to resolve the Irish question.
My understanding of the border post concerns stems from their use by UK troops as a method of preventing IRA terrorists sneaking in or out of NI to place their bombs. Having customs clearance away from the border would surely resolve this issue to any right minded individual and should in no way be used as an excuse to suggest that it undermines the GFA.

John obviously we have a totally different perspective so just lets agree to differ. BTW I hope your comment "any right minded individual" wasn't personally directed

[towny44]

Ray you may have Irish roots but that does not entitle you, or the assumed 90% of US citizens who claim Irish ancestry, to assume only you can be allowed to resolve the Irish question.
My understanding of the border post concerns stems from their use by UK troops as a method of preventing IRA terrorists sneaking in or out of NI to place their bombs. Having customs clearance away from the border would surely resolve this issue to any right minded individual and should in no way be used as an excuse to suggest that it undermines the GFA.

John obviously we have a totally different perspective so just lets agree to differ. BTW I hope your comment "any right minded individual" wasn't personally directed

Ray, you dismiss my views out of hand and yet expect that by saying let's agree to differ that its the end of the discussion.
My comment about any right minded individual was indeed a broad brush comment and not personally directed, but your refusal to consider an alternative does your case no real merit.

[Stephen]

Come on chaps, let's play nicely.