Life After Brexit

[Manoverboard]

I voted in 1975 but it must be remembered that in those days you did not have access to the information we enjoy nowadays. However the vote was very much directed towards whether we wanted to join the Common Market or not. As I remember federalism was never mentioned.

So, your recollection is definitely different to Ken’s.
He said it was made clear.
I seem to recall Jack Staff saying the same.

It was a simple ' Yes / No ' vote as far as I was concerned too but we were far too busy, unlike some, to read the entire Treaty It was only umpteen years later and with the powers of hindsight did we discover that it was a path to Federalism ... Churchill knew but he didn't tell me

[Mervyn and Trish]

The fact it was called the Common Market and then the European Economic Commmunity back in those days was surely a clue to what we were led to believe we were joining. They didn't call it European Union until they'd suckered us in.

[Kendhni]

I voted in 1975 but it must be remembered that in those days you did not have access to the information we enjoy nowadays. However the vote was very much directed towards whether we wanted to join the Common Market or not. As I remember federalism was never mentioned.

As in the second referendum, in 2016, a leaflet was delivered to every house in 1975. It is easy to find online, a sample quote from it

“if the political implications of joining Europe are at present clearest in the economic field, it is because the Community is primarily concerned with economic policy. But it is inevitable that the scope should broaden as member countries’ interests become harmonised […]

What is proposed is a sharing and an enlargement of individual national sovereignties in the general interest”.

Maybe you just missed what the politicians of the day were saying e.g.
David Owen
“Of course that means that one gives up sovereignty, and a lot of the debate in this House has been focused upon sovereignty, and rightly so, because this is a central matter to many of the people who fundamentally do not wish us to go into Europe. They do not wish to give up any measure of sovereignty..."

Enoch Powell (1971)
“I do not think the fact that this involves a cession — and a growing cession — of Parliament's sovereignty can be disputed. Indeed, I notice that those who are the keenest proposers of British entry are the most ready to confess — not to confess, but to assert — that of course this involves by its very nature a reduction of the sovereignty of the House.”

Or what about the media of the day
Daily Mail (when it used to be a newspaper)
"The anti marketeers have a glum lack of faith in Britain's ability to hold her own inside the Market -- coupled with unremitting suspicion of foreigners" (how little things have changed in 40 years).

"They speak as if the EECs eventual goal of political union was a dark secret to be sprung on us when our back was turned"

"Political union will not come until ... we are ready for it. And we're nowhere near ready for it now, and a lot of us probably won;t live to see it. That is the political reality, and everyone knows it. That is why political union is not much of a live issue now. But, if and when our children or our children's children want to join Europe into one integrated nation we shall have left them something more practical than a dream. We shall have left them the joiner's tools and a political roof over their heads.

"That is the legacy we shall not be ashamed to leave. What have the no voters to offer instead?"


I can't remember who said it, but it goes something like 'Just because someone chooses not to inform themselves does not mean they were not informed.'. See if you can remember the actual reason as to why the first referendum was held.

[towny44]

I voted in 1975 but it must be remembered that in those days you did not have access to the information we enjoy nowadays. However the vote was very much directed towards whether we wanted to join the Common Market or not. As I remember federalism was never mentioned.

I certainly endorse that view Foxy, the entire discussions in the media of the time which was essentially papers and TV and radio news, was whether we wanted to stay in the Common Market or not. I am not suggesting that Ken is deliberately telling porkies, but if there was electoral information about a potential federal Europe, then it must have been in small print and it definitely did not figure prominently in any media discussions that I watched. However in those far off "halcyon" days other than panorama there were very few political discussion programmes on TV, and no one I knew listened to radio 4, if in fact the Today programme even existed in those days.
Finally I suspect that Ken was also too young to vote in 1975, and probably like Barney far more interested in talent spotting than politics.

[Midlandslass]

We had already joined in 1973. The 75 vote was about remaining. For the record I voted no.

[Kendhni]

I voted in 1975 but it must be remembered that in those days you did not have access to the information we enjoy nowadays. However the vote was very much directed towards whether we wanted to join the Common Market or not. As I remember federalism was never mentioned.

I certainly endorse that view Foxy, the entire discussions in the media of the time which was essentially papers and TV and radio news, was whether we wanted to stay in the Common Market or not. I am not suggesting that Ken is deliberately telling porkies, but if there was electoral information about a potential federal Europe, then it must have been in small print and it definitely did not figure prominently in any media discussions that I watched. However in those far off "halcyon" days other than panorama there were very few political discussion programmes on TV, and no one I knew listened to radio 4, if in fact the Today programme even existed in those days.
Finally I suspect that Ken was also too young to vote in 1975, and probably like Barney far more interested in talent spotting than politics.

I have provided the evidence, for the third time on this thread, yet the brexiteers still cling to their delusional world. Some have become so invested in their lies that they cannot detach from them (it is a recognised mental illness). BTW Mark Francois comments (mentioned in OBFs) post have long ago been proven to be misleading/incorrect.

You are correct, I was far too young to vote in 1975 - but yet my interest in political history means I seem to 'remember' it much better than others - as I have said before I am too young to forget those days.

[Kendhni]

We had already joined in 1973. The 75 vote was about remaining. For the record I voted no.

That is half the story - I asked for the underlying reason.

[Midlandslass]

We had already joined in 1973. The 75 vote was about remaining. For the record I voted no.

That is half the story - I asked for the underlying reason.

I wasn't replying to you. I was making a statement.

[Kendhni]

We had already joined in 1973. The 75 vote was about remaining. For the record I voted no.

That is half the story - I asked for the underlying reason.

I wasn't replying to you. I was making a statement.

Fair enough, false assumption on my part .. you could however have a go at answering the question

[Midlandslass]

Will I get detention if I don't?

[oldbluefox]

Will I get detention if I don't?

Too true Midlandslass but don't worry, we're all behind you!!!
Whatever you say will be discounted anyway so best just to agree.

[Kendhni]

Will I get detention if I don't?

Definitely not, just my undying admiration if you get it right and a nude picture of the mods if you get it wrong

[towny44]

We had already joined in 1973. The 75 vote was about remaining. For the record I voted no.

That is half the story - I asked for the underlying reason.

Ken, Although I have not researched the electoral offerings of the time I will accept your comments. However since you were too young to vote at the time then I believe you should take far notice of the views of those that were able to vote. Mine and Foxy's recollections from that time are far more relevant and representative of the views of the electorate, especially voters with young families who relied heavily on the TV news bulletins and front pages of the papers. We had little time for reading the editorials or watching late night political discussion programmes, if they even existed then.
You would need to do far more detailed research among those born before 1957 in order to correctly establish the understanding of the main issues of that referendum amongst the electorate of the time.
But you have already decided that we are all jingoistic dinosaurs whose views no longer count . Which sort of leaves your own opinions rather invalid don't you think?

[oldbluefox]

Definitely not, just my undying admiration if you get it right and a nude picture of the mods if you get it wrong

Whatever is the answer you will say it's wrong anyway so if this floats your boat here it is...............

c54d37f31c6f21d3b45f0b355bd60d45.17.jpg

[oldbluefox]

We had already joined in 1973. The 75 vote was about remaining. For the record I voted no.

That is half the story - I asked for the underlying reason.

Ken, Although I have not researched the electoral offerings of the time I will accept your comments. However since you were too young to vote at the time then I believe you should take far notice of the views of those that were able to vote. Mine and Foxy's recollections from that time are far more relevant and representative of the views of the electorate, especially voters with young families who relied heavily on the TV news bulletins and front pages of the papers. We had little time for reading the editorials or watching late night political discussion programmes, if they even existed then.
You would need to do far more detailed research among those born before 1957 in order to correctly establish the understanding of the main issues of that referendum amongst the electorate of the time.
But you have already decided that we are all jingoistic dinosaurs whose views no longer count . Which sort of leaves your own opinions rather invalid don't you think?

I don't think Ken is interested to hear why we voted as we did or to understand what life and communications were like in those days. They were very different days to those we have now.
I posted an article by Mark Francois which explained why some of us felt about the EU as we do/did and hopefully to give an understanding of where we, as Brexiteers, were coming from. I wasn't expecting him to agree since that is his prerogative but simply to understand. However he simply discounted it so as far as I am concerned he can ask as many questions as he likes but I will not be responding since he seems to be impervious to anybody else's opinion but his own. Sorry Ken but whatever your question is I'm out. Enjoy the picture!!!

[Kendhni]

We had already joined in 1973. The 75 vote was about remaining. For the record I voted no.

That is half the story - I asked for the underlying reason.

Ken, Although I have not researched the electoral offerings of the time I will accept your comments. However since you were too young to vote at the time then I believe you should take far notice of the views of those that were able to vote. Mine and Foxy's recollections from that time are far more relevant and representative of the views of the electorate, especially voters with young families who relied heavily on the TV news bulletins and front pages of the papers. We had little time for reading the editorials or watching late night political discussion programmes, if they even existed then.
You would need to do far more detailed research among those born before 1957 in order to correctly establish the understanding of the main issues of that referendum amongst the electorate of the time.

That is not what is on discussion and if you believe that your/Gary's recollections are more relevant then you have proven the point that you chose not to inform yourself at the time of that referendum. I say that based on having no idea on which way either of you voted in 1975. The information, that is now being questioned, was, contrary to the original assertion, freely available to those that bothered to read and listen to what they were being told .. as I have proven. The argument put forward "that people did not know what they were voting for" is therefore only relevant if you also accept that people voted out of self-inflicted ignorance.

But you have already decided that we are all jingoistic dinosaurs whose views no longer count . Which sort of leaves your own opinions rather invalid don't you think?

I am disappointed with that comment ... I actually thought you had reached the hand of reconciliation out and we (or at least you and I) were now going to try to discuss this as adults - unlike some others.

[Kendhni]

That is half the story - I asked for the underlying reason.

Ken, Although I have not researched the electoral offerings of the time I will accept your comments. However since you were too young to vote at the time then I believe you should take far notice of the views of those that were able to vote. Mine and Foxy's recollections from that time are far more relevant and representative of the views of the electorate, especially voters with young families who relied heavily on the TV news bulletins and front pages of the papers. We had little time for reading the editorials or watching late night political discussion programmes, if they even existed then.
You would need to do far more detailed research among those born before 1957 in order to correctly establish the understanding of the main issues of that referendum amongst the electorate of the time.
But you have already decided that we are all jingoistic dinosaurs whose views no longer count . Which sort of leaves your own opinions rather invalid don't you think?

I don't think Ken is interested to hear why we voted as we did or to understand what life and communications were like in those days. They were very different days to those we have now.
I posted an article by Mark Francois which explained why some of us felt about the EU as we do/did and hopefully to give an understanding of where we, as Brexiteers, were coming from. I wasn't expecting him to agree since that is his prerogative but simply to understand. However he simply discounted it so as far as I am concerned he can ask as many questions as he likes but I will not be responding since he seems to be impervious to anybody else's opinion but his own. Sorry Ken but whatever your question is I'm out. Enjoy the picture!!!

Just to be clear. I did not dismiss the article, I have actually bookmarked the link for later reading.
All I said was the the points that Francois made have already been proven to have been inaccurate - based on the context of your initial assertion.

[barney]

So when people voted to remain in 75, they were voting out of self inflicted ignorance and when they voted leave in 2016, they were voting out of self inflicted ignorance?
Seems that everyone is ignorant. (Self Inflicted)

Arrogance is quite a nasty trait, isn’t it.

[Manoverboard]

Will I get detention if I don't?

Too true Midlandslass but don't worry, we're all behind you!!!
Whatever you say will be discounted anyway so best just to agree.

Depends .... is it your first offence, if so lucky you

[towny44]

Ken, there is a old quiz show Slogan, "You have to be in it to win it", which I would amend to, "You need to have been there to understand why", which I believe you need to fully understand before you start trying to be a smart arsed historian.
I am still prepared to be a sociable forum friend, but I just wish you could try and stop trying to force feed us with things you dont fully understand because you are too young.

[oldbluefox]

Just to be clear. I did not dismiss the article, I have actually bookmarked the link for later reading.
All I said was the the points that Francois made have already been proven to have been inaccurate - based on the context of your initial assertion.

"BTW Mark Francois comments (mentioned in OBFs) post have long ago been proven to be misleading/incorrect".
If you haven't read the article how can you comment whether he was correct or not unless you are simply swayed by whatever anybody else says? I suggest you read the article first before making such comment and dismissing it.

[oldbluefox]

Ken, there is a old quiz show Slogan, "You have to be in it to win it", which I would amend to, "You need to have been there to understand why", which I believe you need to fully understand before you start trying to be a smart arsed historian.
I am still prepared to be a sociable forum friend, but I just wish you could try and stop trying to force feed us with things you dont fully understand because you are too young.

In those days we didn't have TV, a daily newspaper or even a telephone.

[Kendhni]

Ken, there is a old quiz show Slogan, "You have to be in it to win it", which I would amend to, "You need to have been there to understand why", which I believe you need to fully understand before you start trying to be a smart arsed historian.
I am still prepared to be a sociable forum friend, but I just wish you could try and stop trying to force feed us with things you dont fully understand because you are too young.

Your civility was short lived.

[Kendhni]

Just to be clear. I did not dismiss the article, I have actually bookmarked the link for later reading.
All I said was the the points that Francois made have already been proven to have been inaccurate - based on the context of your initial assertion.

"BTW Mark Francois comments (mentioned in OBFs) post have long ago been proven to be misleading/incorrect".
If you haven't read the article how can you comment whether he was correct or not unless you are simply swayed by whatever anybody else says? I suggest you read the article first before making such comment and dismissing it.

You posted a quote from Francois - I have made no comment on anything other than the bit you posted - which, as I said has been proven to be inaccurate. If and when I read the article you posted I may, or may not pass a comment on that. So how can I have been swayed by anything ?- your response is totally non sequitor ?????

[oldbluefox]

If you say so Ken. Don't worry about it.