Fracking, nuclear reactors, coal and wind farms

[Mervyn and Trish]

I don't know about anyone else but the latest anti-fracking demos are making me more and more frustrated with the various so-called green groups.

They don't want us to exploit the considerable reserves of gas and oil which apparently exist on (or rather under) our own soil. They don't want us to use our existing coal fired power stations, for which we also still have fuel under our own feet. They don't like wind farms because of the visual impact and noise for nearby residents. They don't like the look of solar power installations on any scale to be useful (if ever in this country). Some years back they opposed a scheme for tidal power in the River Severn on the grounds of impact on wild life. They are against development of new nuclear power stations.

My issue is they only ever tell us what they are against - and it seems to be everything. They never come up with a solution to our future power needs, and while we dither energy prices are rising fast and we are increasingly dependent on other, in some cases unstable, countries for our energy needs.

Yes, we can save energy, but there is a limit. I have an energy efficient boiler, double glazing, UPVC doors, cavity wall insulation, as much insulation as will physically go in my loft, low energy light bulbs, modern efficient appliances, a programmable thermostat which drops the temperature during the day etc etc, all of which I've had to pay for myself at the same time as my taxes and levies on my energy bills help others less well off to do the same.

My energy use has dropped over the years, but the price rises have far exceeded any savings I can make - and I've now run out of energy saving ideas. And I'm desperately sorry for those worse off than me.

So come on protesters. You are apparently against any developments that will give us energy security and reduce bills, or at least stop them rising so fast. So what is your answer? Or do we have to wait until the lights go out to find out?

Discuss!!!

[The Tinker]

I think a lot of them are from the NOT IN MY BACK YARD brigade - you might feel differently if they started fracking or put a wind turbine at the bottom of your garden Mervyn

[Kendhni]

Compare that with the French Green lobby that have (allegedly) been very active and helpful towards Frances nuclear energy program.

[oldbluefox]

I get the impression many are from the 'Rent a Protest Mob' lobby. Oddly enough I did not hear anything of them when they started fracking operations in the North West.

[Kendhni]

I have to add that 'fracking' is something that I Have very mixed feelings about ... there does seem to be a lot of concern over its use.

[Andrea S]

The trouble with this kind of protesting is the amount of people who become involved . I fully understand those who may be affected by changes to the area they live in but so many are just jumping on the bandwagon.

As the fracking has become news protesters are also grouping at power stations.

My Son in law is a driver for a firm that picks up coal at Hull and is then delivered to power stations. On Thursday 2 of their lorries were damaged by protesters and consequently all the drivers have been confined to 'yard' duties.

The knock on effect is no coal delivery, no payment to the firm and standby money for the drivers.
The drivers have been informed that this is how it will stay until the protesters move on.

[ChesterfieldJohn]

The problem is mainly with NIMBY's and the rent a mob that turn up.

They call them selves green , but to me they look like people who wont work and live on the dole.

If they get involved in this sort of protest I would stop their dole money.

We have to find some way of creating the energy we need.

I listened to a guy on Radio 5 this morning from the RSPCB who said that the fracking in Lancashire would cause problems with the birds in Morecambe Bay,
however when asked what proof of this he had he admitted none.

John

[Mervyn and Trish]

I listened to a guy on Radio 5 this morning from the RSPCB who said that the fracking in Lancashire would cause problems with the birds in Morecambe Bay,
however when asked what proof of this he had he admitted none.

And even if he did have proof, while I feel sorry about the birds that might be affected I feel a lot sorrier for the people who will suffer if we don't sort out our energy supplies.

I think a lot of them are from the NOT IN MY BACK YARD brigade - you might feel differently if they started fracking or put a wind turbine at the bottom of your garden Mervyn

I might, though neither is likely. But would I rather have a wind turbine or fracking close by, or the lights go out? On balance I'd rather not live in the dark.

Sadly every development of every kind affects someone. My solution is to say go ahead with what is needed for the common good and handsomely compensate those personally affected. Offer them the market price of their property plus 50% if they want to move out, or the 50% bonus anyway if they want to stay put. Far cheaper in the long run than endless public inquiries and paralysis.

[Not so ancient mariner]

I think a lot of them are from the NOT IN MY BACK YARD brigade - you might feel differently if they started fracking or put a wind turbine at the bottom of your garden Mervyn

.......depends how much compensation they were offering!!!

[Frank Manning]

A few years ago I attended a conference in Austria, about NOx emissions from Power Stations, and the Austrians were keen to know what we could do to reduce NOx because they were under pressure from the Government and Environmental Groups. I had the temerity to suggest that a programme of rolling power cuts, would quickly focus minds on what was important. Remembering the miners strikes and the power cuts durng the Heath Government I was aux fait with the effect on public opinion.

My solution intended tongue in cheek was not considered amusing.

In my old fashioned mind there's no substitute for a lovely big set of 4 500MW steam turbines, powered by lovely big steam boilers with oil burners on them. Ah nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

[ChesterfieldJohn]

I think a lot of them are from the NOT IN MY BACK YARD brigade - you might feel differently if they started fracking or put a wind turbine at the bottom of your garden Mervyn

Surely Coal Mines affected people who lived in the area, subsidence just one affect, but it was accepted not protested against.

This NIMBY attitude is pathetic.

John

[Kendhni]

Having worked for a utility company for many years it was often discussed on how to save money and conserve energy ... The answer was simple ... Use less. On one project we estimated that many could save 25%+ by using energy more efficiently.

Maybe weshould make more use of personal or community generation ... Using wind and/or solar on all new builds (if we dont already do so)

[towny44]

I keep looking for a car bumper sticker saying "I'm Backing Fracking", so my views would be out in the open, however I would have to steer clear of any anti fracking demos.

[howard18]

I live right in the middle of a potential fracking area. I am one of those few who, in this instance, is not a NIMBY.
Bring it on! Lets secure Britains energy needs for the next century or so. It's about time the police stood up for law and order rather than capitulate at the slightest sign of any confrontation and/or costs involved in policing.


Howard

[ChesterfieldJohn]

I live right in the middle of a potential fracking area. I am one of those few who, in this instance, is not a NIMBY.
Bring it on! Lets secure Britains energy needs for the next century or so. It's about time the police stood up for law and order rather than capitulate at the slightest sign of any confrontation and/or costs involved in policing.


Howard

Howard,
Nice to hear, shame the southerners dont think the same

John

[Not so ancient mariner]

Let's not get into a north vs south argument with this one please. There are similar proportions of sensible people and idiots in most parts of the country.

[oldbluefox]

From the information which has been released so far it appears the financial advantages to the country of obtaining gas by fracking are so great that it seems inconceivable that any government is going to ignore it. The problems of supplying energy to a growing population is becoming ever more acute and is a countrywide problem. Therefore it seems to me that where gas exists it is in everybody's interests to release it where it is reasonable for operations to go on.

[The Monocled Mutineer]

There is much to commend in Mervyn & Trish's OP.

The UK, the EU and the World all "enjoy" finite resources in terms of "fossil-fuel" (and indeed the fuel required for our present knowledge of nuclear power)

I do not pretend to be an 'expert' as both the "professional" green protesters tend to be (unlike most subjects of employment age these types seem to be able to do "quite well" without having to work for a living), or the "coalition" of NIMBYS one sees in locales who would never normally even give a second thought to the plight of the lower orders, people they don't mix with, and lefties, etc, etc. Stay-at-home yummy-mummy's who are spouses of highly paid and bonused city-types tearing around in massive Range Rovers around our narrow lanes "doing their bit" lie high in the scale of my vomit-meter.

A number of points:

1). Clearly, there appears to be massive potential for energy and national energy security from fracking. I am in favour of informed and careful consideration of the gradual use of this technology to prove both it's worth and its safety and clearly the first options should be to begin this in the most under-populated areas. Should cost-benefit not be sufficient or, MORE IMPORTANTLY, serious safety matters come to the fore, then such developments be reduced and even abandoned. BUT NOT AT THE UNINFORMED AND UNACCOUNTABLE SAY SO of the coalition of rasta-haired layabouts, wealthy yummy mummies, and Lady p*ss-Pot Barrington-Smyth.

2). Whilst energy conservation and efficiency technology has probably reached it apogee in terms of what is now possible (however, never say never) clearly there is plenty of scope to roll-out efficiency in both business, public sector and our homes where not already fully exploited.

3). There still remains tremendous potential with all the forms of renewables to bridge gaps in fossil and nuclear energy and the prospect of other forms of energy either currently conjectured or/and being researched and those that have not even been imagined. Wind (Major [inshore & offshore, although the latter costs twice as much to build and maintain as the former] and Domestic/business), Solar (again major and micro [the latter from domestic to road signs]),Hydro, Kinetic (Is that the right term?) for road embedded generators, heat pumps and heat exchange units for domestic and business

4). Resume and restart and expand modern nuclear power but only to be sited where the likes of a Fukashima could not happen.

5). Massive resources and research into public and private transport that will utilise electricity generated over the years more proportionally from renewable and nuclear generation.

6). More resources and research into minimising energy loss when transmitting energy from generation to final user.

7). And the 'Holy Grail' of Fusion. Will this happen?

[Frank Manning]

Trouble is Derek, my favourite solution is very inefficient, i.e. Oil burning power stations (its a nostalgia thing! Most thermal power stations were less than 30% efficent, although in Scandinavia where they had district heating from the exhaust steam they achieved 34 - 36%.

Gas turbine generators are less carbon polluting because Methane CH4 has less carbon in its chemistry, less Sulphur, and no Ashphaltenes, furthermore, waste heat boilers down stream can raise more steam for another turbine set. It is a pity that Siemens seem to have beaten Rolls Royce and others into this technology.

As North Sea gas runs out we either become more dependent on countries such as Libya for gas LNG, or we develop our own supplies by Fracking. Its a 'no brainer' for me, given that scenario. Because our carbon output is a fraction of that of China, and I have heard that USA and Canada are sitting on massive reserves of shale fuels.

We do need carbon neutral or no carbon solutions. Having seen the results of roof mounted cells around here I think every house in the country should have them. (Not that I have them)

[Frank Manning]

I live right in the middle of a potential fracking area. I am one of those few who, in this instance, is not a NIMBY.
Bring it on! Lets secure Britains energy needs for the next century or so. It's about time the police stood up for law and order rather than capitulate at the slightest sign of any confrontation and/or costs involved in policing.


Howard

Howard,
Nice to hear, shame the southerners dont think the same

John

This Southerner does!!! As someone says dont lets get divisive over this issue it is National, not Regional.

[Kendhni]

2). Whilst energy conservation and efficiency technology has probably reached it apogee in terms of what is now possible (however, never say never) clearly there is plenty of scope to roll-out efficiency in both business, public sector and our homes where not already fully exploited.

We are not even close to that point yet ... if everybody really tried and we changed how we go about certain day-to-day operations then, by some estimates, we could reduce energy consumption by up to 50%.

[The Monocled Mutineer]

Ken:

As I said, I don't pretend to be an expert like all the antis think they are, and am very open to those who have real, non-empirical knowledge, although in my words you quoted I did say that there is plenty of scope (I suspect) to roll conservation and efficiency out.

[david63]

1). Clearly, there appears to be massive potential for energy and national energy security from fracking. I am in favour of informed and careful consideration of the gradual use of this technology to prove both it's worth and its safety and clearly the first options should be to begin this in the most under-populated areas. Should cost-benefit not be sufficient or, MORE IMPORTANTLY, serious safety matters come to the fore, then such developments be reduced and even abandoned.

Derek - fracking has been in existence off the coast of Blackpool for several years now so the technologhy is already proven - as are the earth tremors

5). Massive resources and research into public and private transport that will utilise electricity generated over the years more proportionally from renewable and nuclear generation.

This is already being done and has been for the last 20 or so years by many of the leading motor manufacturers

[Mervyn and Trish]

2). Whilst energy conservation and efficiency technology has probably reached it apogee in terms of what is now possible (however, never say never) clearly there is plenty of scope to roll-out efficiency in both business, public sector and our homes where not already fully exploited.

We are not even close to that point yet ... if everybody really tried and we changed how we go about certain day-to-day operations then, by some estimates, we could reduce energy consumption by up to 50%.

I'd love to know what Ken, in an existing house like ours, rather than a new purpose built energy efficient home. Especially what can be done at a cost which can be recouped in a reasonable amount of time.

As I said in my original post we've done everything we know of but at a cost which will take many years to recoup, even if bills stopped rising. Short of going to bed under a pile of blankets when the sun goes down I'm out of ideas.

[ChesterfieldJohn]

I live right in the middle of a potential fracking area. I am one of those few who, in this instance, is not a NIMBY.
Bring it on! Lets secure Britains energy needs for the next century or so. It's about time the police stood up for law and order rather than capitulate at the slightest sign of any confrontation and/or costs involved in policing.


Howard

Howard,
Nice to hear, shame the southerners dont think the same

John

This Southerner does!!! As someone says dont lets get divisive over this issue it is National, not Regional.

Sorry everyone, it was meant as ajoke, hence the smiley face, because of all the fuss at Balcombe

John