NHS

[Manoverboard]

We don't need more scanners, those we have now only seem to be operated from 9 - 5 so the money would be better spent training some more Radiographers ... ideally those who would be prepared to work 24 hour shifts during the weekend period.

[Onelife]

'We don't need more scanners'....??


.....try selling that to those who are having to wait 4 months for their MRI scan....l would however go along with your 24/7 MRI / CT suggestion.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Information on the government's plans for the NHS to provide a 7 day service by 2020.

ContentsDocumentsNews and speeches

The government is committed to working with the NHS to make sure that:

people can get the access they need to GP servicespeople in need of hospital care at weekends, both those with emergency needs and those already in hospital, get the same high quality of care as they would during the week

People will be able to book GP appointments at evenings and weekends to get the right care when they need it. They will be able to access a mix of face-to-face, telephone, email and video consultations, which will provide a better fit with modern working lives.

Those with an urgent need will be able to contact NHS 111 by phone or electronically and the NHS will arrange for them to see or speak to a GP or other appropriate health professional – 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Patients will get the same high quality, safe hospital care on a Saturday and Sunday as they do on a weekday. This means having enough doctors available to assess and review patients, providing access to important diagnostic tests and ensuring that consultants are there to make timely clinical judgements


..........

Hi Sir Merv...I'm not sure how some would interpret the above but it reads pretty clear to me.

Reads clear to me too. "Those with emergency needs and those already in hospital." Nothing about admitting electives at weekends. And which bit of that is controversial?

[Onelife]

Patients will get the same high quality, safe hospital care on a Saturday and Sunday as they do on a weekday.

[Quizzical Bob]

'We don't need more scanners'....??


.....try selling that to those who are having to wait 4 months for their MRI scan....l would however go along with your 24/7 MRI / CT suggestion.

A scanner is no good without the staff to operate it.

[Quizzical Bob]

Patients will get the same high quality, safe hospital care on a Saturday and Sunday as they do on a weekday.

On the couple of visits that I have spent in hospital in the last few years I have found that it is very difficult to get discharged over the weekend. The problem seems to be down to the lack of pharmacy staff to issue your medications. On my last visit which was overnight Friday they couldn't let me go home on the Saturday becuse they didn't have any stock of my daily aspirins in the ward. I offered several solutions, I said that I had some at home and could go home and get them and then they could discharge me, or that my wife could come and fetch me and could bring me back once they had found some stock and telephoned me, or that I could sign a disclaimer absolving them of blame or that maybe I could just walk out the door. In the event I was blocking the bed for a couple of hours.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Patients will get the same high quality, safe hospital care on a Saturday and Sunday as they do on a weekday.

But no-one is suggesting elective patients should be admitted on those days.

But again, what's the controversy? No-one seems opposed to this except junior doctors

[Onelife]

Patients will get the same high quality, safe hospital care on a Saturday and Sunday as they do on a weekday.

But no-one is suggesting elective patients should be admitted on those days.

But again, what's the controversy? No-one seems opposed to this except junior doctors

Sir Merv...If this isn't the case of getting more patients through the door for elective procedures then what s the need for the goverments proposed 5,000 extra doctors?......Blood tests?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ju ... in-7158037

[Mervyn and Trish]

You're confusing two issues here OL. Seven day service and cutting waiting lists. But I'm really not arguing with you. I'm sure everyone wants the best NHS we can get.

My initial point was simply that if the aim of a seven day service is to treat people at a time that works better, both socially and medically, that doesn't mean more patients. It means them spread more evenly across seven days. And that needs different rota patterns, not more staff.

That is what the Junior Doctor row is about. The government wants to pay them more basic salary, but have less differentiation between Mon-Fri daytime hours and the rest of the week, so rotas can be decided medically, not economically. Junior doctors say they'll lose money and be more tired.

I'm sure there is right and wrong in the detail on both sides but I support the general idea. If I get ill in the middle of the night at the weekend I don't want worse care,or worst case to die, because I didn't time my illness for Mon-Fri 9-5. I can plan my shopping and wouldn't care if Supermarkets were closed from 7pm Friday to 9am Monday, but I can't plan my stroke, heart attack or whatever.

The second issue, about cutting waiting lists, may need more staff, but that's not what the Junior Doctor dispute is about.

[screwy]

They should try working for the Prison Service..!! Anti-Social hours ie weekends, Bank Holidays and Nights all built in to the wage structure. Assaults on a regular basis both physical ( spat on, urine/sh*t thrown at you, punched, kicked.etc) and Verbal. But don't forget Officer please be nice and treat them with respect..........13 shifts left I cant bloody wait.

[Mervyn and Trish]

For a moment there Screwy I thought you were a nurse in A&E!

[Manoverboard]

'We don't need more scanners'....??


.....try selling that to those who are having to wait 4 months for their MRI scan....

They are waiting because the scanners are only being utilised 25% of the available time in any seven day period.

[Mervyn and Trish]

'We don't need more scanners'....??


.....try selling that to those who are having to wait 4 months for their MRI scan....

They are waiting because the scanners are only being utilised 25% of the available time in any seven day period.

[screwy]

For a moment there Screwy I thought you were a nurse in A&E!

Lol....my daughter used to work A/E so I know what they have to put up with...she now works as a nurse in Police Custody and it's just the same there. Oneday...maybe but doubtful the soft hearted, limp wristed liberals.....who have probably never had to deal with these low lifes will allow the leashes to be removed.

[wolfie]

They should try working for the Prison Service..!! Anti-Social hours ie weekends, Bank Holidays and Nights all built in to the wage structure. Assaults on a regular basis both physical ( spat on, urine/sh*t thrown at you, punched, kicked.etc) and Verbal. But don't forget Officer please be nice and treat them with respect..........13 shifts left I cant bl**dy wait.

Sounds just like the police service and they are not allowed to strike, neither should doctors be allowed to strike. A certain police force has just had their shift patterns changed with absolutely no comeback or consultation; it used to be 6 days on, 2 earlies, 2 lates and 2 nights with 3 days off, and is now it's 7 days on and 2 days off. Considering that you can't come off nights, which is always the last shift of the rota, and enjoy ALL of that first day and then on day 2 have to get up the next day for an early shift, always the first shift of the rota, that leaves 24-36 hours of rest.

[Onelife]

You're confusing two issues here OL. Seven day service and cutting waiting lists. But I'm really not arguing with you. I'm sure everyone wants the best NHS we can get.

My initial point was simply that if the aim of a seven day service is to treat people at a time that works better, both socially and medically, that doesn't mean more patients. It means them spread more evenly across seven days. And that needs different rota patterns, not more staff.

That is what the Junior Doctor row is about. The government wants to pay them more basic salary, but have less differentiation between Mon-Fri daytime hours and the rest of the week, so rotas can be decided medically, not economically. Junior doctors say they'll lose money and be more tired.

I'm sure there is right and wrong in the detail on both sides but I support the general idea. If I get ill in the middle of the night at the weekend I don't want worse care,or worst case to die, because I didn't time my illness for Mon-Fri 9-5. I can plan my shopping and wouldn't care if Supermarkets were closed from 7pm Friday to 9am Monday, but I can't plan my stroke, heart attack or whatever.

The second issue, about cutting waiting lists, may need more staff, but that's not what the Junior Doctor dispute is about.

Sir Merv...I agree with you too that it would be ideal to have a full NHS services seven days a week but think it naive to think this is just about improving the quality of weekend care. What I don't agree with is that spreading existing staff equally over seven days dose not effect the services they can give Monday to Friday when there will be less of them. Getting confused is something I do quite often so I shall use a different tack in an attempt to get my point across...

If a baker is asked to bake a hundred cakes on a Monday, a hundred cakes on a Tuesday, Wednesday Thursday and Friday but only 30 on Saturday and Sunday when it is quieter...but then his boss says.. 'change of plan' I now want you to use the same ingredients but make the same amount of cakes each day then the baker will only be able to bake 80 cakes each day therefore he will be 20 cakes short Monday to Friday.

Solution..Buy more ingredients

Was that more or less confusing?


Regards

Keith

[Onelife]

'We don't need more scanners'....??


.....try selling that to those who are having to wait 4 months for their MRI scan....l would however go along with your 24/7 MRI / CT suggestion.

A scanner is no good without the staff to operate it.

I absolutely agree with you QB but even thought Hunt thinks he can walk on water he aint going to be able produce radiographers out of thin air.

Regards

Keith

[Onelife]

'We don't need more scanners'....??


.....try selling that to those who are having to wait 4 months for their MRI scan....

They are waiting because the scanners are only being utilised 25% of the available time in any seven day period.

Mob...our local hospital operates its MIR scanner over the weekends as do many others... so I am reliably informed.

At the end of the day it all boils down to the funding of such servises and as this crap government has but all brought the NHS to its knees I wouldn't count on this happening any time soon.

Keith

[wolfie]

OL,

OH had a CT scan a year ago on a Saturday to clear the backlog. If they can do it when it is of concern then they can up the ante and not close such facilities after 5pm. Some years ago my MRI was scheduled for 8.30am, again to clear a backlog. Don't let a backlog accumulate in the first place. As soon as waiting times for any scan become longer than acceptable then open the service for longer hours. Simple really. They found the staff in both these instances to operate the scans. They may have had to pay them more BUT diagnostics is the key to a less expensive option in the long term if a scan is NOT readily available within a reasonable time.

[Onelife]

Hi wolfie....l couldn't agree more about keeping the waiting lists down but know for a fact it costs a fortune when they bring extra staff in on overtime because of waiting list initiatives. Like l said before theses additional services all need to be adequately resourced.

Regards

Keith

[Mervyn and Trish]

You're confusing two issues here OL. Seven day service and cutting waiting lists. But I'm really not arguing with you. I'm sure everyone wants the best NHS we can get.

My initial point was simply that if the aim of a seven day service is to treat people at a time that works better, both socially and medically, that doesn't mean more patients. It means them spread more evenly across seven days. And that needs different rota patterns, not more staff.

That is what the Junior Doctor row is about. The government wants to pay them more basic salary, but have less differentiation between Mon-Fri daytime hours and the rest of the week, so rotas can be decided medically, not economically. Junior doctors say they'll lose money and be more tired.

I'm sure there is right and wrong in the detail on both sides but I support the general idea. If I get ill in the middle of the night at the weekend I don't want worse care,or worst case to die, because I didn't time my illness for Mon-Fri 9-5. I can plan my shopping and wouldn't care if Supermarkets were closed from 7pm Friday to 9am Monday, but I can't plan my stroke, heart attack or whatever.

The second issue, about cutting waiting lists, may need more staff, but that's not what the Junior Doctor dispute is about.

Sir Merv...I agree with you too that it would be ideal to have a full NHS services seven days a week but think it naive to think this is just about improving the quality of weekend care. What I don't agree with is that spreading existing staff equally over seven days dose not effect the services they can give Monday to Friday when there will be less of them. Getting confused is something I do quite often so I shall use a different tack in an attempt to get my point across...

If a baker is asked to bake a hundred cakes on a Monday, a hundred cakes on a Tuesday, Wednesday Thursday and Friday but only 30 on Saturday and Sunday when it is quieter...but then his boss says.. 'change of plan' I now want you to use the same ingredients but make the same amount of cakes each day then the baker will only be able to bake 80 cakes each day therefore he will be 20 cakes short Monday to Friday.

Solution..Buy more ingredients

Was that more or less confusing?


Regards

Keith

Your analogy is perfect. If people could buy the cakes they wanted at the weekend, they wouldn't need to buy them again on Monday, so the reduced production on that day would meet demand. In the same way if patients could get the emergency or urgent care they needed at the weekend, they wouldn't still be waiting for it on Monday, or worse be dead

[towny44]

I wait with interest for Keith's response to Merv's most sensible correction of his latest attempt to justify the junior doctors strike action.

[Onelife]

You're confusing two issues here OL. Seven day service and cutting waiting lists. But I'm really not arguing with you. I'm sure everyone wants the best NHS we can get.

My initial point was simply that if the aim of a seven day service is to treat people at a time that works better, both socially and medically, that doesn't mean more patients. It means them spread more evenly across seven days. And that needs different rota patterns, not more staff.

That is what the Junior Doctor row is about. The government wants to pay them more basic salary, but have less differentiation between Mon-Fri daytime hours and the rest of the week, so rotas can be decided medically, not economically. Junior doctors say they'll lose money and be more tired.

I'm sure there is right and wrong in the detail on both sides but I support the general idea. If I get ill in the middle of the night at the weekend I don't want worse care,or worst case to die, because I didn't time my illness for Mon-Fri 9-5. I can plan my shopping and wouldn't care if Supermarkets were closed from 7pm Friday to 9am Monday, but I can't plan my stroke, heart attack or whatever.

The second issue, about cutting waiting lists, may need more staff, but that's not what the Junior Doctor dispute is about.

Sir Merv...I agree with you too that it would be ideal to have a full NHS services seven days a week but think it naive to think this is just about improving the quality of weekend care. What I don't agree with is that spreading existing staff equally over seven days dose not effect the services they can give Monday to Friday when there will be less of them. Getting confused is something I do quite often so I shall use a different tack in an attempt to get my point across...

If a baker is asked to bake a hundred cakes on a Monday, a hundred cakes on a Tuesday, Wednesday Thursday and Friday but only 30 on Saturday and Sunday when it is quieter...but then his boss says.. 'change of plan' I now want you to use the same ingredients but make the same amount of cakes each day then the baker will only be able to bake 80 cakes each day therefore he will be 20 cakes short Monday to Friday.

Solution..Buy more ingredients

Was that more or less confusing?


Regards

Keith

Your analogy is perfect. If people could buy the cakes they wanted at the weekend, they wouldn't need to buy them again on Monday, so the reduced production on that day would meet demand. In the same way if patients could get the emergency or urgent care they needed at the weekend, they wouldn't still be waiting for it on Monday, or worse be dead

Sir Merv.....In the ideal world you would be right but unfortunately the reality is that the current NHS dose not meet the needs and expectations of patients. Therfore as one bed is vacated it is quickly filled by another with a whole new set of needs.

I refer you back to our friend Barney waiting for his knee op.

Regards

Keith

[Mervyn and Trish]

Again OL you prove my point. A 7 day service would include 7 day discharges. We've seen QBob's post about the trouble he had getting out of hospital at the weekend. That may have prevented someone else getting in. Timely treatment means faster recovery, again releasing beds.

But I would repeat (again) you are confusing two issues. The Junior Doctor dispute is about 7 day working. It is not about waiting lists. That is a separate issue and while it would be helped by a 7 day service other actions may be needed. But that's not what they're striking about.

[Onelife]

Sir Merv....With respect I'm not getting confused l hear about the issues constantly from my wife who is a senior nurse working In the NHS, and works closely with the consultants and junior doctors. I agree wholeheartedly that providing a full 7 day NHS service would be ideal but l think you are getting confused between providing a full 7 day NHS service and the reality of resourcing it.

And on that note l'm going on strike it's gee gee time.

Regards

Keith