NHS

[Stephen]

I'll let you all know how the service fairs when I go in for my op in just under four weeks time, unless of course it gets cancelled due to lack of a bed or staff. It wouldn't be the first time either.

[towny44]

Sir Merv....With respect I'm not getting confused l hear about the issues constantly from my wife who is a senior nurse working In the NHS, and works closely with the consultants and junior doctors. I agree wholeheartedly that providing a full 7 day NHS service would be ideal but l think you are getting confused between providing a full 7 day NHS service and the reality of resourcing it.

And on that note l'm going on strike it's gee gee time.

Regards

Keith

Keith, You and the NHS is a bit like me and P&O, I know for an absolute certainty what is wrong with P&O and how to put it right unfortunately, like you and the NHS, I am probably totally wrong.

[Kendhni]

Ah the old poor little me NHS fairy tale again If only people really knew what was happening in the medical arena it would give something worthwhile to moan about.

Government funding to the NHS has increased year-on-year (independent figures here) and in fact, given the current close to zero rates of inflation and borrowing, this means that these are real increases .. or if you don't like independent figures then why not ask the NHS themselves who claim to have had their funding increased by over 80% in the last 12 years ... some up to date facts can be found here as opposed to media spin and ill-informed internet rantings.

I find it incredible that one of the worlds leading countries still relies on a Mon-Fri 9-5 attitude to many of its services in the health service ... how 1960-ish ... long overdue being brought into the 21st century. We should have a proper 24/7 health service ... there is no concept of overtime days etc. there are 7 days in a week it no longer matters what day it is .. it is just working hours.


BTW, if you think things are bad now, they are going to get a lot worse due to a whole litany of issues including staffing levels, laziness, wastage, general incompetence, cost of medical equipment, abuse as people try to protect their benefits, unfunded pensions etc. etc. ... but the one that is really scary is the cost of drugs/medication which is going to shoot through the roof (and outstrip the current funding within 20 years (probably)).

I believe the only fix is to switch to a subsidised model so you make a contribution every time you see your GP, every time you visit a clinic, every time you require medical help etc. ... the current model is not sustainable and people will cringe away from the cost of insurance to provide the service they whinge about.

[Onelife]

Hi Ken...nice to see you've come out from what seems a long hibernation

I couldn't agree more with most of what you have said. The NHS certainly needs to cut out some of the waste and my wife could certainly provide a few suggestions on how to do that!! There seems to have been more put into the NHS but now if the government wants a full 7 day NHS some of that money needs to find its way to the front line services to provide more staff...If you can find them of course!!. With regards to staff working every day of the week, that already happens. The contentious issue is perhaps more about how many weekends is it reasonable to ask individuals to work. I don't think charging per appointment is the way foward especially for those with long term conditions but l do agree that there dose need to be some concensus about what we want from our our NHS then be prepared to pay it.

Regards

Keith

[Onelife]

Hi Ken...nice to see you've come out from what seems a long hibernation

I couldn't agree more with most of what you have said. The NHS certainly needs to cut out some of the waste and my wife could certainly provide a few suggestions on how to do that!! There seems to have been more put into the NHS but now if the government wants a full 7 day NHS some of that money needs to find its way to the front line services to provide more staff...If you can find them of course!!. With regards to staff working every day of the week, that already happens. The contentious issue is perhaps more about how many weekends is it reasonable to ask individuals to work. I don't think charging per appointment is the way foward especially for those with long term conditions but l do agree that there dose need to be some concensus about what we want from our our NHS then be prepared to pay it.

Regards

Keith

Oh...and don't expect me to pay for it, love just blown £30 on the gee gees

[Kendhni]

Hi Ken...nice to see you've come out from what seems a long hibernation

I couldn't agree more with most of what you have said. The NHS certainly needs to cut out some of the waste and my wife could certainly provide a few suggestions on how to do that!! There seems to have been more put into the NHS but now if the government wants a full 7 day NHS some of that money needs to find its way to the front line services to provide more staff...If you can find them of course!!. With regards to staff working every day of the week, that already happens. The contentious issue is perhaps more about how many weekends is it reasonable to ask individuals to work. I don't think charging per appointment is the way foward especially for those with long term conditions but l do agree that there dose need to be some concensus about what we want from our our NHS then be prepared to pay it.

Regards

Keith

Ultimately that is the crux ... how much additional cost will the public stomach. I sometimes hear people complain about a two-tier system ... well tough, we already have a two-tier system ... if you are willing to pay the blackmail costs (or have private health insurance) you can be seen in a a matter of hours ... if not then join the back of the queue. It would be grossly unfair to expect those already paying out for private health care to stump up more for those who won't fund their own healthcare.

I believe the concept of the 'weekend' is a red herring, people demand a 24 hour always-on-always-connected environment .. the logical conclusion of that is ALL industries (public and private) have to stop thinking of the concept of a 'weekend' ... I am afraid that no longer exists in the 21st century ... it is just taking some companies/departments longer to realise that than others.

[wolfie]

Hi wolfie....l couldn't agree more about keeping the waiting lists down but know for a fact it costs a fortune when they bring extra staff in on overtime because of waiting list initiatives. Like l said before theses additional services all need to be adequately resourced.

Regards

Keith

Hi,

But surely the price of providing diagnostic and early treatment would offset the cost of providing personnel to man the scanners, as opposed to a delay in diagnosis with much more expensive treatment, at a much later stage of diagnosis, of any condition/disease?

[wolfie]

The police, fire service, ambulance service, are on call and on shifts 24/7. What makes junior doctors, who, like the aforementioned, and who chose to go in to their profession, any different, and, at a far more generous pay scale than any of those previously mentioned, but still have the right to strike/ withdraw their services when we, as tax payers have paid for their training.

[Quizzical Bob]

Hi wolfie....l couldn't agree more about keeping the waiting lists down but know for a fact it costs a fortune when they bring extra staff in on overtime because of waiting list initiatives. Like l said before theses additional services all need to be adequately resourced.

Regards

Keith

Hi,

But surely the price of providing diagnostic and early treatment would offset the cost of providing personnel to man the scanners, as opposed to a delay in diagnosis with much more expensive treatment, at a much later stage of diagnosis, of any condition/disease?

Far too sensible, Wolfie.

The NHS does not believe in prophylaxis. It is a Fire Brigade too busy running about putting out fires to ever think in the longer term.

[Kendhni]

But surely the price of providing diagnostic and early treatment would offset the cost of providing personnel to man the scanners, as opposed to a delay in diagnosis with much more expensive treatment, at a much later stage of diagnosis, of any condition/disease?

I can't remember the figures but there is very much a pyramid in relation to costs based on how early a finding is made ... good preventative medicine saves a fortune compared to responsive medicine ... that is why obesity has come to the fore recently.

[Onelife]

Hi wolfie....l couldn't agree more about keeping the waiting lists down but know for a fact it costs a fortune when they bring extra staff in on overtime because of waiting list initiatives. Like l said before theses additional services all need to be adequately resourced.

Regards

Keith

Hi,

But surely the price of providing diagnostic and early treatment would offset the cost of providing personnel to man the scanners, as opposed to a delay in diagnosis with much more expensive treatment, at a much later stage of diagnosis, of any condition/disease?

Hi wolfie... seems a perfectly sensible approach to me which brings us to the question of why don't they do it?

[Onelife]

The police, fire service, ambulance service, are on call and on shifts 24/7. What makes junior doctors, who, like the aforementioned, and who chose to go in to their profession, any different, and, at a far more generous pay scale than any of those previously mentioned, but still have the right to strike/ withdraw their services when we, as tax payers have paid for their training.

I think it is a bit unfair to say the tax payer pays for their training, when they come out of university with 5 years fees and debt. As far as l understand it junior doctors salary starts around £23k for what can be shift patterns that include 60/70/ 80 hour weeks.

[towny44]

I think it is a bit unfair to say the tax payer pays for their training, when they come out of university with 5 years fees and debt. As far as l understand it junior doctors salary starts around £23k for what can be shift patterns that include 60/70/ 80 hour weeks.

From what I read the figure of £23,000 is their basic pay, average earnings in early training are £40,000pa rising to £56,000 in the later stages.

[Mervyn and Trish]

And unless they're rubbish they have the expectation of moving on to being a consultant in their 30s on a very nice salary thanks.

[anniec]

But surely the price of providing diagnostic and early treatment would offset the cost of providing personnel to man the scanners, as opposed to a delay in diagnosis with much more expensive treatment, at a much later stage of diagnosis, of any condition/disease?

I can't remember the figures but there is very much a pyramid in relation to costs based on how early a finding is made ... good preventative medicine saves a fortune compared to responsive medicine ... that is why obesity has come to the fore recently.

From a purely financial perspective, I'd question their pyramid. Earlier diagnosis and treatment, along with smoking cessation and trying to frighten people into dieting, simply adds to the ever-growing population of the very elderly, otherwise (charmingly) known as bed blockers. And once you get to that point, the chances of you not having half a dozen expensive non-preventible chronic conditions, plus a rotten quality of life, are just about nil.

[towny44]

But surely the price of providing diagnostic and early treatment would offset the cost of providing personnel to man the scanners, as opposed to a delay in diagnosis with much more expensive treatment, at a much later stage of diagnosis, of any condition/disease?

I can't remember the figures but there is very much a pyramid in relation to costs based on how early a finding is made ... good preventative medicine saves a fortune compared to responsive medicine ... that is why obesity has come to the fore recently.

From a purely financial perspective, I'd question their pyramid. Earlier diagnosis and treatment, along with smoking cessation and trying to frighten people into dieting, simply adds to the ever-growing population of the very elderly, otherwise (charmingly) known as bed blockers. And once you get to that point, the chances of you not having half a dozen expensive non-preventible chronic conditions, plus a rotten quality of life, are just about nil.

Are you proposing some sort of euthanasia to help the NHS live within its business?

[Onelife]

But surely the price of providing diagnostic and early treatment would offset the cost of providing personnel to man the scanners, as opposed to a delay in diagnosis with much more expensive treatment, at a much later stage of diagnosis, of any condition/disease?

I can't remember the figures but there is very much a pyramid in relation to costs based on how early a finding is made ... good preventative medicine saves a fortune compared to responsive medicine ... that is why obesity has come to the fore recently.

From a purely financial perspective, I'd question their pyramid. Earlier diagnosis and treatment, along with smoking cessation and trying to frighten people into dieting, simply adds to the ever-growing population of the very elderly, otherwise (charmingly) known as bed blockers. And once you get to that point, the chances of you not having half a dozen expensive non-preventible chronic conditions, plus a rotten quality of life, are just about nil.

Are you proposing some sort of euthanasia to help the NHS live within its business?

For gawd sake towny please don't give this government any more ideas, they've already sent thousands of mental ill and disabled people to an early grave due to their 'fit to work' culling polocies.

[anniec]

But surely the price of providing diagnostic and early treatment would offset the cost of providing personnel to man the scanners, as opposed to a delay in diagnosis with much more expensive treatment, at a much later stage of diagnosis, of any condition/disease?

I can't remember the figures but there is very much a pyramid in relation to costs based on how early a finding is made ... good preventative medicine saves a fortune compared to responsive medicine ... that is why obesity has come to the fore recently.

From a purely financial perspective, I'd question their pyramid. Earlier diagnosis and treatment, along with smoking cessation and trying to frighten people into dieting, simply adds to the ever-growing population of the very elderly, otherwise (charmingly) known as bed blockers. And once you get to that point, the chances of you not having half a dozen expensive non-preventible chronic conditions, plus a rotten quality of life, are just about nil.

Are you proposing some sort of euthanasia to help the NHS live within its business?

Certainly not! Merely pointing out that the statistics produced like rabbits out of a hat are sometimes a little more complicated than they first appear.

[Silver_Shiney]

I think it is a bit unfair to say the tax payer pays for their training, when they come out of university with 5 years fees and debt. As far as l understand it junior doctors salary starts around £23k for what can be shift patterns that include 60/70/ 80 hour weeks.

I thought medical trainees didn't "pay" for their university training - Welshie certainly didn't (but that might have been because she went to Swansea Uni)

[Onelife]

I think it is a bit unfair to say the tax payer pays for their training, when they come out of university with 5 years fees and debt. As far as l understand it junior doctors salary starts around £23k for what can be shift patterns that include 60/70/ 80 hour weeks.

I thought medical trainees didn't "pay" for their university training - Welshie certainly didn't (but that might have been because she went to Swansea Uni)

Hi Mr Shiney.....l'm always willing to hold my hands up when l'm wrong....Thank you for your clarification

Regards

Keith

[GillD46]

They still have massive debts - unless they have parents with VERY deep pockets!

[Silver_Shiney]

They still have massive debts - unless they have parents with VERY deep pockets!

Not necessarily - my daughter didn't have any debts after her nursing training/degree course (and I have very shallow pockets and extremely short arms.... )

[Onelife]

Hi Gill.....hopefully tonight's BBC 'inside out' program will open a few eyes as to what is really happening inside today's NHS.

Regards

Keith

[Manoverboard]

Hi Gill.....hopefully tonight's BBC 'inside out' program will open a few eyes as to what is really happening inside today's NHS.

Regards

Keith

Nah .... I think we already know the answer to that

[GillD46]

They still have massive debts - unless they have parents with VERY deep pockets!

Not necessarily - my daughter didn't have any debts after her nursing training/degree course (and I have very shallow pockets and extremely short arms.... )

Maybe the dozens and dozens of Drs we know have been extravagant then. Most if them had around £50,000 worth if debt by the end of their courses.