Brexit

[Jack Staff]

... unlike the Quitters who are now just blaming everyone else and each other for the ongoing Brexit débâcle.

Who else would there be to blame..........................???

er, the people who voted for it?

Meanwhile it appears Ken Clarke knows exactly what he wants for the country.................

He said that in 1996! Not sure of the relevance to today, apart from the fact that he is someone who stands by his principles, unlike remain campaigner May for example.

[oldbluefox]

BTW if a second poll did reverse the decision I presume the House of Lords would campaign for "best of three".

I was actually wondering the same although we may not be allowed to use the 'advisory' excuse a second time. The Remainers might allow us to use one of theirs.

[barney]

I reckon that folks could argue until the cows come home on this one and never agree.

So let's go back to a few actual basic facts and not he said, she said.

Jack, please feel free to contradict!

The sitting government of the day (Tory) in coalition said, vote for us and you will get a referendum on the matter.
A straight IN or Out vote.
So, people voted and they won a majority and formed a Government.

They then asked Parliament to vote on having a referendum and Parliament voted overwhelmingly for it.
So we had it and the 'wrong side' won. The PM resigned and a new PM was elected under Tory party rules.
Then some no mark from the City raised some money to challenge the Government on Article 50 saying that Parliament should vote on it.
Well, she won the court case, Parliament voted and agreed to start the leaving process.
So Article 50 was invoked and the UK was leaving the EU.

Since then, the world and his wife have tried to stop the process.

Surely anybody with any dignity, whether they agree with the results or not, must accept it.
Otherwise what is the whole point of voting?

I went to see the PM when he was speaking at Dover pre-ref.
He said to the audience and the cameras, a vote to leave the EU is a vote to leave the single market and customs union.
Of that there is absolute proof and no dispute. I know because I was there.

Just imagine if the nay sayers and anti democrats had have put as much effort into helping the UK leave instead of back stabbing and hindering at very opportunity. The country would be a very different place.

I fully apprciate the objections of those who don't want to leave but rather than trying to stop the democratic process, they should turn their efforts to winning the next general election and stand on a mandate of joining the EU.
That would be real democracy.

[Ray Scully]

Barney the bottom line for any Government is the safety and economic well being of its citizens. I can't see either being best served by negotiating a deal which is to the disadvantage of UK Ltd, no matter how may times one repeats the most meaningless phrase so far conjured up this century "Brexit means Brexit"

[towny44]

Barney the bottom line for any Government is the safety and economic well being of its citizens. I can't see either being best served by negotiating a deal which is to the disadvantage of UK Ltd, no matter how may times one repeats the most meaningless phrase so far conjured up this century "Brexit means Brexit"

If you had followed that policy in 1940 then I imagine many politicians would have advocated negotiating a surrender to Germany and Hitler's Nazis. A good job Churchill did not fully agree with you Ray, despite the deaths and deprivations that resulted from his policies.

[Jack Staff]

If you had followed that policy in 1940 then I imagine many politicians would have advocated negotiating a surrender to Germany and Hitler's Nazis. A good job Churchill did not fully agree with you Ray, despite the deaths and deprivations that resulted from his policies.

Churchill fought against the right wing politics that was sweeping the continent at the time. That cancer is now in the UK.

He helped create 'Europe' to prevent those events happening again.

[Jack Staff]

I fully apprciate the objections of those who don't want to leave but rather than trying to stop the democratic process, they should turn their efforts to winning the next general election and stand on a mandate of joining the EU.
That would be real democracy.

Don't worry Barney, those plans are already well in hand.

[barney]

If you had followed that policy in 1940 then I imagine many politicians would have advocated negotiating a surrender to Germany and Hitler's Nazis. A good job Churchill did not fully agree with you Ray, despite the deaths and deprivations that resulted from his policies.

Churchill fought against the right wing politics that was sweeping the continent at the time. That cancer is now in the UK.

He helped create 'Europe' to prevent those events happening again.

I'd refer you to my earlier post.

The UK is one of the least 'right wing' countries in Europe.

I'd recommend some reading on the subject but doubt you could be bothered due to your Stockholm Syndrome.

[Jack Staff]

I'd refer you to my earlier post.
The UK is one of the least 'right wing' countries in Europe.

Arguably, until the Conservatives absorbed the loonies from UKIP and basically all their policies (I know hospital parking charges are an exception).

I'd recommend some reading on the subject but doubt you could be bothered due to your Stockholm Syndrome.

[towny44]

If you had followed that policy in 1940 then I imagine many politicians would have advocated negotiating a surrender to Germany and Hitler's Nazis. A good job Churchill did not fully agree with you Ray, despite the deaths and deprivations that resulted from his policies.

Churchill fought against the right wing politics that was sweeping the continent at the time. That cancer is now in the UK.

He helped create 'Europe' to prevent those events happening again.

And it was working exceptionally well as a free trade organisation, sadly the drive for federalism and creation of the Euro seems to me to have led the shift towards extreme right wing parties. In which case you ought to be happy that the UK is leaving the EU.

[barney]

You can laugh all you like my old mate, but this organisation of which you are so desperate to remain shackled to, has plenty of problems.
https://www.politico.eu/article/populis ... oss-hairs/

Brexit seems to be the least of their problems at the moment.

https://www.politico.eu/article/nationa ... -new-name/
So, the second party in France is far right and the third party in Germany is far right and you compare that to UKIP ???
Bit of an own goal there Jack
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/ang ... far-right/

[barney]

Maybe we should re-phrase the whole question.
Let's pretend that we are a new country thinking about applying for entry.
Q. Would you like to join the EU?
A. Yes or No?

[Ray Scully]

Well keyboard Don Quixote's It looks all over for you, according to current polling I would bet on an agreement to an almost seamless split with the EU
being accepted by the great British public

[Jack Staff]

If you had followed that policy in 1940 then I imagine many politicians would have advocated negotiating a surrender to Germany and Hitler's Nazis. A good job Churchill did not fully agree with you Ray, despite the deaths and deprivations that resulted from his policies.

Churchill fought against the right wing politics that was sweeping the continent at the time. That cancer is now in the UK.

He helped create 'Europe' to prevent those events happening again.

And it was working exceptionally well as a free trade organisation, sadly the drive for federalism and creation of the Euro seems to me to have led the shift towards extreme right wing parties. In which case you ought to be happy that the UK is leaving the EU.

'RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY' - Not very Churchillian.

[Jack Staff]

You can laugh all you like my old mate, but this organisation of which you are so desperate to remain shackled to, has plenty of problems.
https://www.politico.eu/article/populis ... oss-hairs/

Brexit seems to be the least of their problems at the moment.

https://www.politico.eu/article/nationa ... -new-name/
So, the second party in France is far right and the third party in Germany is far right and you compare that to UKIP ???
Bit of an own goal there Jack
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/ang ... far-right/

I certainly can not deny that the far right are gaining ground at the moment. That is why it is up to all of us to stand up to this threat.
It will be difficult with people like this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44352779

[david63]

Not sure why we are having all of this discussion.

I was reading only the other day that Barnier does not want to negotiate. OK just tell him we are going in March next year and taking all our money with us - end of, job done, simples

[oldbluefox]

Not sure why we are having all of this discussion.

I was reading only the other day that Barnier does not want to negotiate. OK just tell him we are going in March next year and taking all our money with us - end of, job done, simples

[Jack Staff]

Not sure why we are having all of this discussion.

I was reading only the other day that Barnier does not want to negotiate. OK just tell him we are going in March next year and taking all our money with us - end of, job done, simples

We could do that.

Indy Ref2 would then be successful.
United Kingdom would cease to be and the term Great Britain is then only valid as its' original geographical term for our island.
To stop civil war in NI and the governments failure to implement a border it unifies with the south.
Spain forces the issue to regain sovereignty of Gibraltar.
The Argies look on and think 'Perhaps now would be a good time....'

England then decides to rejoin the EU, but its' application is blocked by Scotland.

[Just the slight possibility of any of the above happening SHOULD be enough to stop any sane politician thinking twice about that option.]

[Mervyn and Trish]

Jack you really make Project Fear sound like a cheery lot.

Welcome back by the way. I assume your prolonged absence was due to some actual cruising. Looking forward to your reports.

[Jack Staff]

Jack you really make Project Fear sound like a cheery lot.

Welcome back by the way. I assume your prolonged absence was due to some actual cruising. Looking forward to your reports.

Thanks! Great to be back. You are quite correct, recently got back from a cruise around the Med, but I have to say I was disappointed not to bump into you on Oriana earlier in the year, as I thought you too might have taken the easy option rather than the Hurty Gurty route we discussed.

[oldbluefox]

Not sure why we are having all of this discussion.

I was reading only the other day that Barnier does not want to negotiate. OK just tell him we are going in March next year and taking all our money with us - end of, job done, simples

We could do that.

Indy Ref2 would then be successful.
United Kingdom would cease to be and the term Great Britain is then only valid as its' original geographical term for our island.
To stop civil war in NI and the governments failure to implement a border it unifies with the south.
Spain forces the issue to regain sovereignty of Gibraltar.
The Argies look on and think 'Perhaps now would be a good time....'

England then decides to rejoin the EU, but its' application is blocked by Scotland.

[Just the slight possibility of any of the above happening SHOULD be enough to stop any sane politician thinking twice about that option.]

You sound more paranoid than George Osborne...................... Fanciful but of course we all know none of this would happen.

[Jack Staff]

We could do that.

Indy Ref2 would then be successful.
United Kingdom would cease to be and the term Great Britain is then only valid as its' original geographical term for our island.
To stop civil war in NI and the governments failure to implement a border it unifies with the south.
Spain forces the issue to regain sovereignty of Gibraltar.
The Argies look on and think 'Perhaps now would be a good time....'

England then decides to rejoin the EU, but its' application is blocked by Scotland.

[Just the slight possibility of any of the above happening SHOULD be enough to stop any sane politician thinking twice about that option.]

You sound more paranoid than George Osborne...................... Fanciful but of course we all know none of this would happen.

I hope you are correct. I do believe that most Brexiters are not only nationalists, but some are also patriots and will realise the danger.

The talk of Irish reunification is rife. This will scare the DUP, bringing down the Conservatives - hung parliament, time to rethink, that problem temporarily solved.
Nicola however has been too quiet. She knows Scotland would leave a UK out of Europe. She is happy to see Brexit happen.
Why is no one talking about Gibraltar, because it is an acceptable price to pay for Brexit? I signed the petition for a Gibraltar MP last time I was there.

I'm not Mystic Meg, I have no idea which combination of events will actually happen. But I don't subscribe to the Brexiters blind faith of 'it will all be fine because we're British'.

[towny44]

We could do that.

Indy Ref2 would then be successful.
United Kingdom would cease to be and the term Great Britain is then only valid as its' original geographical term for our island.
To stop civil war in NI and the governments failure to implement a border it unifies with the south.
Spain forces the issue to regain sovereignty of Gibraltar.
The Argies look on and think 'Perhaps now would be a good time....'

England then decides to rejoin the EU, but its' application is blocked by Scotland.

[Just the slight possibility of any of the above happening SHOULD be enough to stop any sane politician thinking twice about that option.]

You sound more paranoid than George Osborne...................... Fanciful but of course we all know none of this would happen.

I hope you are correct. I do believe that most Brexiters are not only nationalists, but some are also patriots and will realise the danger.

The talk of Irish reunification is rife. This will scare the DUP, bringing down the Conservatives - hung parliament, time to rethink, that problem temporarily solved.
Nicola however has been too quiet. She knows Scotland would leave a UK out of Europe. She is happy to see Brexit happen.
Why is no one talking about Gibraltar, because it is an acceptable price to pay for Brexit? I signed the petition for a Gibraltar MP last time I was there.

I'm not Mystic Meg, I have no idea which combination of events will actually happen. But I don't subscribe to the Brexiters blind faith of 'it will all be fine because we're British'.

Jack, I fear old Foxy is correct you are definitely paranoid, I'm not sure we Brexiteers are the correct people to advise you how to escape from this pit of despair you seem to have dug yourself into.
But things are rarely as bad as the so called experts would have us believe, I well remember the paranoia that descended on our IT dept when they started to believe the Millenium Bug fantasies. Highly educated and qualified staff seemed to suddenly be overcome with this lemming like rush to try and solve a problem that the wise old sages amongst us predicted was an overblown fantasy propagated by lots of money grabbing IT start ups who had suddenly found a golden goose that was going to make their fortune, and for some it probably did.
You can bet that amongst the hair shirt ripping remainers there will be a large number looking to make money out of this so called crisis, and some poor firms are very likely to fall for it hook line and sinker.
I understand my comments are going to fall on your deaf ears but I hope you will still be around come Brexit day to see the sun rise and the port of Dover bustling with vehicles heading unencumbered in both directions, and gradually the truth will dawn on the unbelievers that the world hasn't ended after all.

[barney]

towny !

There was a lady on some talk show recently, Yasmin Alibaba - Brown or something like that, who claimed that Brexit was actually making her mentally ill.
She just could not reconcile the fact that the side she voted for lost.
There must be some name for this Syndrome.

Like many others, she claimed that whatever deal the PM bought back to Parliament, it should be voted down.
What if it's a good deal asked the host.
It doesn't matter she claimed.
She just wanted us to stay in the EU.
What about the £250 million net a week that it costs us he asked.
Worth every penny was her reply.

She is one the few that will NEVER give up, but ultimately like Blair, Clegg, Campbell and others, they are 'rent an opinion' and their views are no more valid than anyone else's.

At last Jack has admitted that he is no Mystic Meg and doesn't claim to know what will happen. Hooray for that.
He's spent the last year telling us the end of the world is nigh

[barney]

An interesting opinion piece on Politico EU
https://www.politico.eu/article/europea ... ke-and-go/

Basically a message to the UK to just go. We've had enough of you.
Then … but you could still change your mind.
Then … stay and let's all reform the EU together

It seems that we are not the only ones confused by it all