Brexit

[Jack Staff]

Westminster had no real power, it had been given away in ongoing Treaties.

Which treaties? What was given away?

My grand Nephew has just finished his politics and business degree at Bath, and his final thesis was on the Brexit referendum. He tells me that Maastricht was the defining treaty that lost us, and all others, their vetos, and started the EU on the final leg of its ultimate aim of a federal europe. He believes that if the Tories had not stabbed Maggie in the back that she, and therefore the UK Govt. would never have agreed to sign this treaty, but we will never know if this would have happened and what the outcome would then have been.

I understand the point under discussion here is that 'HMG had no power to solve it's own problems' (or something close).

"Obviously, the EU does not get involved in all legislation.
Parliament retains control over the fundamental decisions: how much of our income is directly taxed, how much of that money is spent on welfare, health and education, how our streets and borders are policed, when and where our armed forces go to war, what our foreign policy is towards the rest of the world, and so on.

And if the UK does co-operate with the EU on any of these issues, it is voluntary and the government can either veto a proposal or choose not to take part.

UK opt-outs?
The UK has opted out of some EU laws and agreements, including economic and monetary union (the euro), the border-free Schengen zone, the charter of fundamental rights, and some security and justice issues."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... m-36247456 A BBC article from back when it was trying to put both sides.

Your grand Nephew will know Dr Galpin then, a friend of ours.

[Ray Scully]

I have now come down off the fence, my position now is a hard Brexit with no agreement, border or otherwise and no payments of any kind to the EU
Why? because of ground

[towny44]

Westminster had no real power, it had been given away in ongoing Treaties.

Which treaties? What was given away?

My grand Nephew has just finished his politics and business degree at Bath, and his final thesis was on the Brexit referendum. He tells me that Maastricht was the defining treaty that lost us, and all others, their vetos, and started the EU on the final leg of its ultimate aim of a federal europe. He believes that if the Tories had not stabbed Maggie in the back that she, and therefore the UK Govt. would never have agreed to sign this treaty, but we will never know if this would have happened and what the outcome would then have been.

I understand the point under discussion here is that 'HMG had no power to solve it's own problems' (or something close).

Not really, you're missing the point as usual, I am not concerned about UK opt outs or whether any specific EU regulation is injurious to the the UK. The main concern I have is that the major influential countries in the EU and by inference the Euro zone are, of necessity, becoming increasingly concerned about the state of the economies in the Euro zone, to the exclusion of fringe economies like ours. This is no criticism but just a statement of the current and forward reality, which was the main reason for my no vote.
The EU no longer represents the best interests of the UK, IMO of course, therefore we would be better off out of it before the concerns for the Euro make EU decision making even more divorced from our interests.
But I do accept your right to disagree, I just wish you offered me the same courtesy.

[Jack Staff]

I have now come down off the fence, my position now is a hard Brexit with no agreement, border or otherwise and no payments of any kind to the EU
Why? because of ground

"You can convince people to vote to abolish gravity, but they will be very pissed off with you when they hit the ground."

Professor Brian Cox

[Ray Scully]

I have now come down off the fence, my position now is a hard Brexit with no agreement, border or otherwise and no payments of any kind to the EU
Why? because of ground

"You can convince people to vote to abolish gravity, but they will be very p***ed off with you when they hit the ground."

Professor Brian Cox

OOP! some of my text was missing
I have now come down off the fence, my position now is a hard Brexit with no agreement, border or otherwise and no payments of any kind to the EU
Why? because of the catastrophic result, this will bring about the fall of the Conservative Party, most probably their total demise and we will then hopefully be able to have a more representative government mirroring the views and aspirations of the middleground.

[towny44]

I have now come down off the fence, my position now is a hard Brexit with no agreement, border or otherwise and no payments of any kind to the EU
Why? because of ground

"You can convince people to vote to abolish gravity, but they will be very p***ed off with you when they hit the ground."

Professor Brian Cox

OOP! some of my text was missing
I have now come down off the fence, my position now is a hard Brexit with no agreement, border or otherwise and no payments of any kind to the EU
Why? because of the catastrophic result, this will bring about the fall of the Conservative Party, most probably their total demise and we will then hopefully be able to have a more representative government mirroring the views and aspirations of the middleground.

We currently have no middle ground parties, Corbyn's Labour is akin to communism and Cable's Liberals also hold fairly left wing views. You must be you hoping for a new party to arise from the ashes, but if it was EU supporting its hardly likely to be representative of the majority in the country.

[Jack Staff]

I don't think the Conservatives can come back from this whatever happens.
I have doubts about Labour too.
Could be a new party on the cards, fronted by a former Labour leadership candidate anna Conservative - just rumours atm.

[Ray Scully]

Well after the last two days of stalemate in Parliament between the ideologues and pragmatists and those just voting to keep their job as MP's
as my mother would say "it will all end in tears"

[towny44]

I don't think the Conservatives can come back from this whatever happens.
I have doubts about Labour too.
Could be a new party on the cards, fronted by a former Labour leadership candidate anna Conservative - just rumours atm.

Suggestions that both the Tories and Labour are finished have been made many times in the past, and yet they make more comebacks than status quo. In fact most 2 party democracies switch back and forth regularly and new parties very rarely succeed in creating a sustainable presence and rarely make any impact on government.
Wishful thinking again on your part Jack.

[Jack Staff]

I don't think the Conservatives can come back from this whatever happens.
I have doubts about Labour too.
Could be a new party on the cards, fronted by a former Labour leadership candidate anna Conservative - just rumours atm.

Suggestions that both the Tories and Labour are finished have been made many times in the past, and yet they make more comebacks than status quo.

In fact most 2 party democracies switch back and forth regularly and new parties very rarely succeed in creating a sustainable presence and rarely make any impact on government.

Though not sustainable, UKIP did make an impact. I have to agree, even they took 20 years to get nowhere.

Wishful thinking again on your part Jack.

Maybe, but not on my part, just a rumour I'm hearing.

[barney]

With remainer Teresa running one party and leaver Jezza running the other it's amazing that the Lib dems are not doing better. Vince Cable has convinced himself that the vast majority agree with him. Let's see if they pick up any votes in staunch remainer land of Lewisham today in the by election.

[Jack Staff]

With remainer Teresa running one party and leaver Jezza running the other it's amazing that the Lib dems are not doing better. Vince Cable has convinced himself that the vast majority agree with him. Let's see if they pick up any votes in staunch remainer land of Lewisham today in the by election.

I doubt it. It's much more Labour land than anything.
If Corbyn doesn't deliver a thumping win it could have interesting repercussions. (last time 21K maj. 67.9%)

[barney]

As expected, a Labour win with the Libdems coming in second, pushing the Conservatives out to third.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... y-lib-dems
A much reduced majority of only 5K but still a clear win with 50% of the vote

The baffling statistic is a turnout of only 33%
Seven in ten could not be bothered to walk down the road to put a tick in a box.

Amazing !

[oldbluefox]

By Remainer logic that translates as 67%+ did not vote for Labour. Should there be another vote?
Maybe people are getting a little tired of the shenanigans currently going on in our political parties.

[barney]

It's actually worse than that Foxy.

50% of the 33% who bothered voted Labour so they actually won with 16.5% of the eligible vote.
That's overwhelming in my book

That's the sort of victory clamed by UK MEPs. The turnout for that is always around 30%

Mind you, that is brilliant when compared to Slovakia's 13% turnout.
Ironically, the only country with a consistent high turn out for EU elections is ……. Belgium.
Vested interest ???????

The EU average is around 40% turnout which again tells us that 6 in 10 are not really bothered.

[david63]

I think that all elections should require 50% + 1 of the electorate in order to be elected. That should reduce the numbers at Westminster dramatically! Might even get some decisions made!!

[Mervyn and Trish]

Anyone not voting should be clearly tattooed on the forehead so they can be identified when they are demonstrating against the result!

Unless they have a note from their Mum!

[barney]

It doesn't really seem to matter much these days Merv.

As the blonde lady on Question Time pointed out to Dominic Grieve, he stood as a Conservative on the Conservative manifesto of leaving the EU, leaving the single market and leaving the customs union, then immediately after the election, started plotting with a couple of others on how to stop the whole thing.

I can sort of understand how an MP representing a remain constituency would agitate, but if their voters elected to leave the EU, then that is rank hypocrisy . They should resign the whip and stand as independents.

[Ray Scully]

What was Mrs May's motive in drawing attention to the uncertainty of a Brexit dividend by suggesting that it would form part of the additional funding for the NHS

[Manoverboard]

She didn't wish to suggest that ALL of the savings would go into the NHS, nor indeed that any money would be provided without reform of the NHS …. seeemples.

[Jack Staff]

What was Mrs May's motive in drawing attention to the uncertainty of a Brexit dividend by suggesting that it would form part of the additional funding for the NHS

Because even she is beginning to realise the possibility of a Peoples Vote is now increasing, so is introducing the idea that if you don't vote leave the NHS will suffer? Worked last time.

[barney]

Hi Jack. Welcome back !

Jack, my old mate, the only one who can call a 'peoples vote' is the PM.

If we assume that May is unseated and doesn't lead the Tories at the next election, do you honestly think that her successor is going to call for another vote on the issue, pre general election in 2022?
That's just not going to happen, is it?

It would need both May and Jezza to be overthrown and replaced by staunch Remainers.

Even then, there would have to be a GE and the winner would need to get it through Parliament. As both parties stood on a leave ticket last time, that would mean a huge turnaround of opinion.

What we have is a very vocal minority, claiming to speak for the majority, a bit like UKIP in the very early days.
It took them twenty years to get anywhere.
Grieve, Soubry Woolastan et al claim that they have the numbers and the House behind them.
Maybe they should put up or shut up.

Is there seriously any evidence of a mood swing towards another referendum except in the Guardian and The Independent?
Any poll is really about how you form the question.
Q. do you think May is doing a good job?
A. overwhelmingly NO.
Q. would you prefer Corbyn?
A. overwhelmingly No.

If the answer was different, Labour would be many points ahead, but they are not.

As I've said previously, their best option is to form a new party who's manifesto is to re-join the EU.

[Manoverboard]

There is another aspect to all this …

Mrs May has stated that after Brexit money will flow into the NHS. So ….

To achieve this she will need to get a good deal at the EU negotiations and wider support during the lead up from within the House because without it the eventual deal may be poor and the NHS will potentially suffer as a consequence.

Labour will be forced therefore to support her in her quest to get a decent Brexit settlement if they are to avoid being blamed for the lower funding of the NHS.

Sounds like a cunning Baldrick plan to me.

[barney]

Sounds like a cunning Baldrick plan to me

I'd love to think that she was that bright Moby

[Ray Scully]

Hey what an a volte-facen U-turn or a flip-flop call it what you will, by Bojo today when asked about the Brexit dividend and £360 million a week for the NHS. Unfortunately it now appears that Bojo's hubris together with selfish ambition is going to cost us all.