Brexit

[Manoverboard]

I also think that we have identified a way round the backstop, one that was probably proposed by the MP who presented the ' Amendment ' on the related topic.

I also agree with D63 regarding the codicil approach.

[Mervyn and Trish]

The likelihood of a second referendum seems to have receded, for now, at least.

But if there were to be one, the issue remains, what would be the question?

The People's Vote campaign, and other Remainers, claim there is an appetite for a second and that polls show there is a demand.

Recently, however, I saw an interesting article which analysed this claim and the polls.

It is true there is a majority for a second referendum, but the ideas for what the question should be are as split as MPs views on the way ahead.

Asked if they'd like another referendum a majority said yes.

But asked if they'd specifically like another vote on whether or not to leave the EU a majority said no.

Asked if they'd like a vote to choose between Theresa's deal (the option then on the table) or no deal a majority said no.

And there were other permutations too.

The same piece pointed out that a vote with three options, remain, leave on TM's deal, or leave on no deal, would not be acceptable as it would split the leave vote and potentially, for example, remain could win if it got 34% of the votes and the other options 33% each. So remain wins despite 66% voting leave in one form or another.

So the only viable second vote would have to have two questions. First leave or remain, and second, if the decision is still to leave, which deal.

That then gets so complicated that it would be open to claims from the losers, as this time, that the winners didn't know what they were doing.

It seems even the advocates of a sceond vote can't come up with a formula that works.

[Mervyn and Trish]

I also think that we have identified a way round the backstop, one that was probably proposed by the MP who presented the ' Amendment ' on the related topic.

I also agree with D63 regarding the codicil approach.

I think we should send D63 to Brussels to sort it out. He's already shown he's better at IT than P&O's IT team. I reckon he might be better at diplomacy than Whitehall!

[barney]

I also think that we have identified a way round the backstop, one that was probably proposed by the MP who presented the ' Amendment ' on the related topic.

I also agree with D63 regarding the codicil approach.

I think we should send D63 to Brussels to sort it out. He's already shown he's better at IT than P&O's IT team. I reckon he might be better at diplomacy than Whitehall!

I'll second that

[Gill W]

We most likely do have alternatives - such as those already suggested during the original negotiations.

As I said before - it is all about money (ours)

They are not going to reopen negotiations on the WA only to discuss things that that were already discussed ad infinitum

[Gill W]

What they say to the cameras and what they are saying behind closed doors may be two different things otherwise what would be the purpose of them meeting?
The people of Gibraltar voted to remain in the EU and not so long ago to remain British. If, after we leave the EU they wish to decide whether they want to remain with the UK or go along with Spain they should be the ones to decide. The same for the Scots.

As far as I know, no meeting has actually been fixed yet.

I know Twitter is sniffed at around here, but various sources have reported that May spoke to Juncker on the phone yesterday lunch time and was told that WA negotiations would not be reopened.

I'm not sure how many more times they need to say it before May, Brexiters and certain members of this forum will believe them.

But hey, let's carry on believing in unicorns and let's smash up the Uk while we're at it.

[barney]

What they say to the cameras and what they are saying behind closed doors may be two different things otherwise what would be the purpose of them meeting?
The people of Gibraltar voted to remain in the EU and not so long ago to remain British. If, after we leave the EU they wish to decide whether they want to remain with the UK or go along with Spain they should be the ones to decide. The same for the Scots.

As far as I know, no meeting has actually been fixed yet.

I know Twitter is sniffed at around here, but various sources have reported that May spoke to Juncker on the phone yesterday lunch time and was told that WA negotiations would not be reopened.

I'm not sure how many more times they need to say it before May, Brexiters and certain members of this forum will believe them.

But hey, let's carry on believing in unicorns and let's smash up the Uk while we're at it.

Gill, the Withdrawal Agreement is not an agreement until it is ratified by both parties. The UK Parliament rejected it. They have now asked for a compromise. Now it's up to the EU to decide if they wish to negotiate. It's their choice. At the moment they are saying no, full in the knowledge that the Irish economy will collapse without a deal. Its their choice. Some may call that blackmail. I'd call it tough negotiation.

[Jack Staff]

Some may call that blackmail. I'd call it tough negotiation.

As this was signed up to by Davis and Johnson back in 2017, I would call it bad faith and untrustworthy.
Even if a deal is done (not), what about the future trade deal?
The EU will no longer cut us any slack, our promised easiest deal in history will become another nightmare that will go on and on, year after year, at the expense of the UK.

There is now only one solution, revoke Article 50.

At least then Brexiters can have a rethink and come up with a plan that actually works and put that to the country again.

[barney]

Once again rewriting history Jack. Davis and Johnson did not endorse TMs agreement with the EU. They actually resigned over it. At the end of the day, TM signed up to a bad agreement and our Parliament rejected it. That is the actual process and it was followed. The EU parliament also have the right to reject it.

[Jack Staff]

Once again rewriting history Jack. Davis and Johnson did not endorse TMs agreement with the EU. They actually resigned over it.

and what jobs did they resign from????
Brexit Secretary and Foreign office wasn't it? What were they doing before they resigned?
We do of course know the answer in both cases, they were faffing about trying to make themselves look good for any future 'position' that might become vacant. They couldn't even get that right.

At the end of the day, TM signed up to a bad agreement and our Parliament rejected it. That is the actual process and it was followed. The EU parliament also have the right to reject it.

Which they did within minutes.

[Onelife]

I agree with Mob.....If we took this to the eleventh hour we would undoubtedly call their bluff, however l'm not so sure parliament will allow us to do this.

Last night's vote to stop a no deal (not binding) has effectively given the EU a green card to dig their heels in.....We are indeed our own worst enemies and whilst Theresa should never have signed up to the backstop, parliament is not helping her rectify the situation.

She, apparently will be having a telephone conversation with Junker this afternoon, which will, one would presume, decide whether or not she books a ticket to Brussels .....If they shut the door in her face then better they do it this afternoon in order that parliament can finally see what the EU is really all about.

On a more serious note.... the question most are wanting to know is whether or not Gill is still talking to Onelife?

[Jack Staff]

I agree with Mob.....If we took this to the eleventh hour we would undoubtedly call their bluff, ...

You are forgetting Europe is ahead of us. It is already five to twelve there.

[Manoverboard]

Says it all …. they're so stuck in a rut and intransigent that the EU even has to use its own eleventh hour rather than ours

[towny44]

We most likely do have alternatives - such as those already suggested during the original negotiations.

As I said before - it is all about money (ours)

They are not going to reopen negotiations on the WA only to discuss things that that were already discussed ad infinitum

Gill, what is the point of your repeated support of Brussels in your posts, we know you want to remain so there really is no need to keep reiterating your pro remain bias. No one can know for certain what the EU will do, but I expect they will listen to TM and only once they consider what she has to say and give their final response will we know the outcome. Repeating the remainer party line is terribly boring.

[screwy]

Whatever did we do when we didn’t have lettuce in winter.? Not sure about the rest of you but we have quite a few market gardens round us,I’m sure the growers will think of something.We already get produce from South Africa/America,Kenya etc, we’re British,we’ll cope.Potato 5 ways, Boiled,mashed,chipped,scolloped and roast,ah, takes me back to being a kid again.

[barney]

Absolutely screwy. The fact that a third of our food currently comes from the EU is a red herring. That is because we import and export unnecessarily. We ship kentish apples to EU countries while simultaneously importing French apples. Madness and hardly green. There is very little that we import that we can't get here already. Its called globalisation and I'm against it.

[Manoverboard]

Turnip 'n' lettuce casserole …. doesn't get any better

Our diet is very Mediterranean so we could be hit harder than some but I cannot believe for a moment that the Greeks, Italians and or the Spanish will be unable to get their produce into the UK. Maybe it could come via Gibraltar ?

[Mervyn and Trish]

We most likely do have alternatives - such as those already suggested during the original negotiations.

As I said before - it is all about money (ours)

They are not going to reopen negotiations on the WA only to discuss things that that were already discussed ad infinitum

You might be right Gill. On the other hand you might not. Unless you know something we don't. Personally I'm not that close to the negotiators. What they say in public may or may not be what they say in private.

Two thoughts. The backstop is designed to prevent a hard border in Ireland. The EU say it is never intended it will come into force. It is an insurance policy. So why not put a time limit on it, if they intend to negotiate in good faith on a trade deal? Which they say they are.

If it's a no deal exit on WTA terms there will be a hard border in Ireland. In April. Not two or three years down the line when they've had plenty of time to sort an alternative. Cutting off noses to spite faces comes to mind. And the vote to prevent a no deal exit last night was, according to commentators, only advisory. So the EU can't count on that.

Second thought, already backed up in the press today. We heard early on that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. So no deal. No divorce payment.

[barney]

It'll come via Calais Moby, just as it's always done. The exporters will not give up their lucrative market in the UK. Who'll buy it if the UK doesn't. Bulgaria. Romania. Cypress. If the French cause problems at Calais they will bypass it and use other routes. Project fear is once again being ignored by the enlightened.

[screwy]

A guy in the audience on QT a while back stated “ we survived 2 world wars, we can survive Brexit.”

[Ray Scully]

A guy in the audience on QT a while back stated “ we survived 2 world wars, we can survive Brexit.”

An unfortunate comment Screwy. Many, including relatives of mine made the ultimate sacrifice

[screwy]

And mine Ray,I also served please don’t make too much from a comment.The comment was that we coped after the nightmare of war and what followed.We got by till we were able to fill the shelves and we will again if we have to.

[barney]

That chap on QT was quite wrong to use that anology. That was a serious crisis. Brexit will be an inconvenience at worst and probably a minor temporary blip.

[Gill W]

Gill, what is the point of your repeated support of Brussels in your posts, we know you want to remain so there really is no need to keep reiterating your pro remain bias. No one can know for certain what the EU will do, but I expect they will listen to TM and only once they consider what she has to say and give their final response will we know the outcome. Repeating the remainer party line is terribly boring.

I'm not supporting Brussels, I'm just listening to what they are saying - and they are saying they aren't going to reopen negotiations. They haven't said this just once, they repeat it over and over.

It's nothing to do with a pro-remain bias, it's just realism.

However if there's no point in posts with a pro-remain bias, I assume that it follows that there no point in posts with a pro-leave bias.

[Gill W]

We most likely do have alternatives - such as those already suggested during the original negotiations.

As I said before - it is all about money (ours)

They are not going to reopen negotiations on the WA only to discuss things that that were already discussed ad infinitum

You might be right Gill. On the other hand you might not. Unless you know something we don't. Personally I'm not that close to the negotiators. What they say in public may or may not be what they say in private.

Two thoughts. The backstop is designed to prevent a hard border in Ireland. The EU say it is never intended it will come into force. It is an insurance policy. So why not put a time limit on it, if they intend to negotiate in good faith on a trade deal? Which they say they are.

If it's a no deal exit on WTA terms there will be a hard border in Ireland. In April. Not two or three years down the line when they've had plenty of time to sort an alternative. Cutting off noses to spite faces comes to mind. And the vote to prevent a no deal exit last night was, according to commentators, only advisory. So the EU can't count on that.

Second thought, already backed up in the press today. We heard early on that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. So no deal. No divorce payment.

Then we go to them wanting to negotiate a trade deal.

What's the first thing they are going to ask for as a condition for agreeing a trade deal?

The money that we owe them.

I
On a more serious note.... the question most are wanting to know is whether or not Gill is still talking to Onelife?

No