Brexit

[Jack Staff]

Touchy!

You bet. I thought we were all gentlemen here*.
The constant implication that if a statement is disagreed with then it must be a lie has wound me up a bit.
I am happy to concede that this is becoming the norm in the current political climate (fake news), but I had hoped for better.

*Gill and others count as honorary!

[towny44]

Touchy!

You bet. I thought we were all gentlemen here*.
The constant implication that if a statement is disagreed with then it must be a lie has wound me up a bit.
I am happy to concede that this is becoming the norm in the current political climate (fake news), but I had hoped for better.

*Gill and others count as honorary!

A statement from a pro remain source will be about as valid as one from a pro leave source, so no need for you to feel any more touchy than we do Jack.

[Jack Staff]

Touchy!

You bet. I thought we were all gentlemen here*.
The constant implication that if a statement is disagreed with then it must be a lie has wound me up a bit.
I am happy to concede that this is becoming the norm in the current political climate (fake news), but I had hoped for better.

*Gill and others count as honorary!

A statement from a pro remain source will be about as valid as one from a pro leave source, so no need for you to feel any more touchy than we do Jack.

I was talking about personal statements.
Much as I think you are wrong on your political views, if you said you knew about (say) the pharmaceutical industry I would take your word.

[towny44]

Yes … but you didn't explain why it wouldn't work once it was modified

Because Sweden has a 'Hard' border with Norway for trucks. So doesn't help there.
Norway is in Schengen and has FOM. So no need for passport checks.

Just can't see how any software, Swedish or otherwise, has much bearing on the N. Irish Border.

Re-reading this I have to ask why? The current system is software based and relies on trust, so why would a similar system after Brexit not work, if both parties still trusted the other?

[barney]

Yes … but you didn't explain why it wouldn't work once it was modified

Because Sweden has a 'Hard' border with Norway for trucks. So doesn't help there.
Norway is in Schengen and has FOM. So no need for passport checks.

Just can't see how any software, Swedish or otherwise, has much bearing on the N. Irish Border.

Re-reading this I have to ask why? The current system is software based and relies on trust, so why would a similar system after Brexit not work, if both parties still trusted the other?

I'll tell you why John .... because it's going to be "A Disaster Darrrrrling"

Everybody says it will be !
I watched NewsNight last evening and pretty much every 'expert' and every reporter said that it will be a disaster.

From midnight March 29th, all trade with every EU country will immediately stop.
Calais will look like a ghost town, with only illegal immigrants scouring the streets, looking for a truck to jump on to.
The trucks in Dover will be backed up to Milton Keynes.

Spanish fruit and veg growers will be composting thousands of tons of food, rather than sell it to the UK.
French wine makers will be tipping it down the sink rather than let those awful Brits buy it.
Italian white goods manufacturers will be scrapping freezers and washing machines in their tens of thousands.
Dutch flower growers will be calling their chums in Bulgaria and Romania, to see if they can take up the slack.
And German car manufacturers ?
Well they won't even bother getting out of bed.
What's the point?
They don't want to sell BMWs to the UK market anyway.

Then Project Reality will set in, and trade will continue pretty much as it does now, with a few tweaks.

And once again, the 'experts' will be left wiping egg off their chin.

[Jack Staff]

Yes … but you didn't explain why it wouldn't work once it was modified

Because Sweden has a 'Hard' border with Norway for trucks. So doesn't help there.
Norway is in Schengen and has FOM. So no need for passport checks.

Just can't see how any software, Swedish or otherwise, has much bearing on the N. Irish Border.

Re-reading this I have to ask why? The current system is software based and relies on trust, so why would a similar system after Brexit not work, if both parties still trusted the other?

This border has been used by Brexiters as an example because it seems to provide a solution. It doesn't.
Norway is in Schengen, so no passport checks are required. Aha! say Brexiters, just like the Irish common travel area, which is true. But Ireland is also in the EU as well so Johan Norwegian quite legally wandering around Ireland can just walk over our border unchecked. Not really taking back control.

The current system in Norway/Sweden is based on trucks stopping, being checked and paperwork exchanged, because Norway is not in the Customs Union. But Norway is in the EEA and single market so things are similar both sides of the border. If Brexit was to be a success (it won't) things will be very different across the NI border. If not why bother with Brexit in the first place.
Even here there are large truck stops, offices and the like that will attract the attention of certain republicans. Police protection will be required and then in future the Army will have to protect them. Just like the seventies.

We could just not bother with a border. For ease we would probably adopt EU tariffs, so why bother with Brexit.
WTO rules are made even more difficult/impossible in this instance.

[Manoverboard]

Yes … but you didn't explain why it wouldn't work once it was modified

Because Sweden has a 'Hard' border with Norway for trucks. So doesn't help there.
Norway is in Schengen and has FOM. So no need for passport checks.

Just can't see how any software, Swedish or otherwise, has much bearing on the N. Irish Border.

Re-reading this I have to ask why? The current system is software based and relies on trust, so why would a similar system after Brexit not work, if both parties still trusted the other?

I think it could be made to work … but there are those who seem hell bent on searching out doom scenarios rather than, in this particular instance, accepting the possibility of a software ' solution '.

[barney]

Because Sweden has a 'Hard' border with Norway for trucks. So doesn't help there.
Norway is in Schengen and has FOM. So no need for passport checks.

Just can't see how any software, Swedish or otherwise, has much bearing on the N. Irish Border.

Re-reading this I have to ask why? The current system is software based and relies on trust, so why would a similar system after Brexit not work, if both parties still trusted the other?

This border has been used by Brexiters as an example because it seems to provide a solution. It doesn't.
Norway is in Schengen, so no passport checks are required. Aha! say Brexiters, just like the Irish common travel area, which is true. But Ireland is also in the EU as well so Johan Norwegian quite legally wandering around Ireland can just walk over our border unchecked. Not really taking back control.

The current system in Norway/Sweden is based on trucks stopping, being checked and paperwork exchanged, because Norway is not in the Customs Union. But Norway is in the EEA and single market so things are similar both sides of the border. If Brexit was to be a success (it won't) things will be very different across the NI border. If not why bother with Brexit in the first place.
Even here there are large truck stops, offices and the like that will attract the attention of certain republicans. Police protection will be required and then in future the Army will have to protect them. Just like the seventies.

We could just not bother with a border. For ease we would probably adopt EU tariffs, so why bother with Brexit.
WTO rules are made even more difficult/impossible in this instance.

In typical Remainer fashion Jack, you are conflating two different issues.
In my mind, 'taking back control' is not so much about who enters the country but more about who can come and legally reside and work here.

I'm happy to have any tourist to come from an EU country and wander around to their hearts content.
But, that will not give them licence to take a job and a flat, and settle here.
That, in my opinion is the key issue for Brexit voters.
It is the uncontrolled nature of what we have allowed ourselves to get in to.

As an aside, did you know that we have a whole prison dedicated solely to foreign prisoners who have committed crimes in the UK.
The vast majority of these prisoners come from Eastern Europe and were allowed in under free movement.
This prison is in Maidstone (ex Kray's nick)
This is a absolute fact and I know becuase a Polish friend of mine works there teaching English (go figure)

Did you also know that 29% of people arrested by the Met Police last year were Foreign Nationals.
I'm not including the young black British kids in this figure.
This is the figure for people who hold a foreign passport
.
Currently, about 12% of people in UK jails are foreign nationals, with Romanians making up the majority.
And you want to allow Albania in ?
Give me strength.

[Jack Staff]

I think it could be made to work … but there are those who seem hell bent on searching out doom scenarios rather than, in this particular instance, accepting the possibility of a software ' solution '.

How? You are not the only one who wants a magic bullet.
"Software" is a Brexiter fantasy, unless a Brexiter comes up the solution. They have all the money after all.
It is no good blaming others.

[Jack Staff]

In typical Remainer fashion Jack,

Sorry Barney, I don't think I can reply to this without causing upset.

[towny44]

I think it could be made to work … but there are those who seem hell bent on searching out doom scenarios rather than, in this particular instance, accepting the possibility of a software ' solution '.

How? You are not the only one who wants a magic bullet.
"Software" is a Brexiter fantasy, unless a Brexiter comes up the solution. They have all the money after all.
It is no good blaming others.

Jack, you still have not answered the simple question of why post Brexit a software solution would not permit free movement of goods, forget the free movement of people, because I think that Barney has answered why this is not a problem.

[Jack Staff]

Jack, you still have not answered the simple question of why post Brexit a software solution would not permit free movement of goods, forget the free movement of people, because I think that Barney has answered why this is not a problem.

I'm sorry, I thought you might know what software actually was.
It's 'thinking' stuff that magically runs around in computers that make them work.
I do not know how to get a computer to police a border. Maybe start with wheels on the bottom?
So I do not know how to answer your simple question. To date no one does. Hence the problem.
It is a fantasy.
If Brexiters, the clever ones so I'm told, can't do it, why ask a remainer?

[Ray Scully]

Jack, you still have not answered the simple question of why post Brexit a software solution would not permit free movement of goods, forget the free movement of people, because I think that Barney has answered why this is not a problem.

I'm sorry, I thought you might know what software actually was.
It's 'thinking' stuff that magically runs around in computers that make them work.
I do not know how to get a computer to police a border. Maybe start with wheels on the bottom?
So I do not know how to answer your simple question. To date no one does. Hence the problem.
It is a fantasy.
If Brexiters, the clever ones so I'm told, can't do it, why ask a remainer?

[towny44]

Jack, you still have not answered the simple question of why post Brexit a software solution would not permit free movement of goods, forget the free movement of people, because I think that Barney has answered why this is not a problem.

I'm sorry, I thought you might know what software actually was.
It's 'thinking' stuff that magically runs around in computers that make them work.
I do not know how to get a computer to police a border. Maybe start with wheels on the bottom?
So I do not know how to answer your simple question. To date no one does. Hence the problem.
It is a fantasy.
If Brexiters, the clever ones so I'm told, can't do it, why ask a remainer?

Jack, with trust on both sides why would th ere need to be any policing, if the documentation is correctly recorded on whatever computer system that's used there would be a verifiable audit trail, which happens with lots of similar systems worldwide.
And your sarcastic and condescending rep!y has duly been noted by my computer.

[Jack Staff]

Jack, with trust on both sides why would th ere need to be any policing, if the documentation is correctly recorded on whatever computer system that's used there would be a verifiable audit trail, which happens with lots of similar systems worldwide.
And your sarcastic and condescending rep!y has duly been noted by my computer.

Because that is not what happens with Norway Sweden. Countries that are in the same block (EEA).
If software can't do it there, it can not do it where the differences are even greater.

I'm glad your computer understands what goes around comes around. 'Bout time.

[barney]

In typical Remainer fashion Jack,

Sorry Barney, I don't think I can reply to this without causing upset.

You won't upset me Jack.

I'm not a remainer snowflake

I can take a bit of criticism. I've been married for years

[Manoverboard]

… and you've got a computer

[Gill W]

And once again, the 'experts' will be left wiping egg off their chin.

Some of the things you've been saying over the last few months have the potential for leaving egg on your face..... in fact a whole ommlette on your face !

[barney]

And once again, the 'experts' will be left wiping egg off their chin.

Some of the things you've been saying over the last few months have the potential for leaving egg on your face..... in fact a whole ommlette on your face !

Well, time will tell, won't it Gill.

As I've said previously, it won't be half as good as some Brexiteers hope, and half as bad as some Remainers fear.

[Quizzical Bob]

Jack, you still have not answered the simple question of why post Brexit a software solution would not permit free movement of goods, forget the free movement of people, because I think that Barney has answered why this is not a problem.

I'm sorry, I thought you might know what software actually was.
It's 'thinking' stuff that magically runs around in computers that make them work.
I do not know how to get a computer to police a border. Maybe start with wheels on the bottom?
So I do not know how to answer your simple question. To date no one does. Hence the problem.
It is a fantasy.
If Brexiters, the clever ones so I'm told, can't do it, why ask a remainer?

Jack, with trust on both sides why would th ere need to be any policing, if the documentation is correctly recorded on whatever computer system that's used there would be a verifiable audit trail, which happens with lots of similar systems worldwide.
And your sarcastic and condescending rep!y has duly been noted by my computer.

If there are forms to be filled in and documentation to be recored then it is not a free movement of goods. It doesn't matter whether the forms are filled out on paper and put in the post or whether they are filled out on screen and sent in elctronically, it is an overhead that takes time and has a cost.

Think of the case of a small businessman living on one side of the Irish border and doing some work on the other. Is he going to fill in all the details of every tool and item in the back of his van? This is what has to happen now between Norway and Sweden and is so much truble that workmen don't take their tools with them if they are doing a job. There are only a limited number of crossing points for goods vehicle and the total number is only a few tens. Sweden and Norway have their own individual arrangements for the movement of people dating back to the 1950s when they entered a passport union together with the other Nordic states Denmark, Finland and Iceland, which allowed ID-free travel between these countries.

I have driven acroos this border in a car and whilst it is true that there were no border posts or guards there were CCTV cameras with ANPR and customs inspection points for commercial vehicles in more convenient locations. There were also rows of concrete 'dragons' teeth' andti-vehicle lines running through the forset on either side of the road to stop anybody from driving through the trees and avoiding the cameras.

The longest border in the world is that between Canada and the USA and there are a total of just over 110 road crossings. The Irish border has nearly 300 with countless thousands of back lanes and open fields. Good luck to the person who wants to close off all these and go back to concrete blocks and barbed wire. The success of the Good friday Agreement is partly down to the fact that both sides of the border can act as though it doesn't exist. The Peace Process is a long and painstaking process of building up trust and cooperation between the communities and nobody wants to go back to the way things were before.


https://news.sky.com/story/sweden-warns ... t-11140707

https://www.lifeinnorway.net/norway-sweden-border/

[Quizzical Bob]

The first EU law that I would like to see repealed is the is the jurisdiction of the ECJ over our domestic Supreme Court.
It doesn't affect my DAILY life as but it is an infringement on the sovereignty of the United Kingdom.
To be subservient to a foreign court is the slippery slope to oblivion as an independent country.
Could you imagine what the result would have been in 1975, had this been included in the remain lobbying ?
A few like to pretend that it was obvious what the country was voting for back then, but the reality is very different, as history has proved.



From what I am led to believe, the Government is going to transpose all existing EU law into British law and once we have left, we can look at what we want to keep and what we want to ditch.
I'd call that sensible and democratic.

Barney, thanks for your reply.

The vast majority of the ECJ laws which we have adopted relate to the operation of the Single Market which is to be expected. In order for this market to operate freely it is necessary for all parties to have a 'level playing field' in order to avoid unfair competition. The ECJ underpins product standards so that the consumer knows that they are protected and that the goods that they buy wherever they buy them are of good and comparable quality. It also means that customers and suppliers have a form of redress in the event of any dispute.

Let me put it this way, if you sell some goods to China and the customer rejects them after a few weeks and doesn't pay then are you going to sue them in a Chinese court? This is why such trade is usually cash-in-advance.

[barney]

Why would any want to go back to how it was before? Thankfully the UK has moved on. Hopefully Ireland has as well.

[Quizzical Bob]

You see, this is the only answer that I ever get given and there's nothing wrong with my PC. If you can think of an answer then please tell us. Please. PLease. Just one would be a start.

Which is the first EU-related law that you would like to see repealed and how does it affect you in your daily life?

QB, I don't think I have ever expressed concern about EU related laws, although I do want to be free of any ECJ jurisdiction, and other than stopping our (nett) budget payments there is unlikely to be any current financial benefit,. However I do worry that the increasing emphasis by the EU on supporting the euro and the weaker countries in the eurozone will require even greater resources of labour from what is already a bloated bureaucracy, and whilst we are not in the euro, and should not be required to support the eurozone, it will become ever more difficult to separate these costs from the general running costs.
But the main reasons I want to leave are that I no longer believe that the EU fulfills the needs that drew us in initially, I want to be in a free trade organisation that recognises the needs of the nation states and does not want to be a political super power.
There is, IMO, no need for the European parliament, do away with Euro, because it is economically flawed, and make the members of the commission a rolling group nominated from each states MPs with very limited terms of office, and a watching brief to ensure the bureaucracy does not grow out of hand, and that it runs a balanced budget, and the commission officials should continue to be paid by their country. All of the above should massively reduce the EU bureaucracy and should make it viable for years to come.
Since this is all a pipedream, the only alternative for me was to vote to leave and hopefully agree a sensible trade deal that kept most of what we currently enjoy, but with the prospect of formulating our own trade deals. Not because I felt that we would be financially better off, but hopefully not substantially worse off. Simple as that.

Towny, thanks for taking the time to detail your hopes and reasons.

The Euro is here to stay as much as the US $ is and personally I see it as one big missed opportunity for the UK. We use a currency that nobody else in the world uses or wants and not dealing in the same currency as 450m (or so) customers resticts the desirability of anybody buying anything from us. It's bad enough that there is a big 22 mile ditch between us that also puts up the cost of everything.

The EU budget is balanced and has been for a long time. It has to be for financial reasons. The EU bureaucracy is very small in relation to the amount of money that is controlled. In total it is smaller than a moderate English County Council.

[Jack Staff]

And things just get more and more interesting. Poor Trezza. Oh dear, how sad. Never mind.
But we all knew that was going to happen.
But this latest news! Now that is interesting.......
(Doesn't happen until 8 pm BTW)

[Jack Staff]

Even more interesting now is why nothing happened. Hmmmmmm.