Brexit

[barney]

If my posts bore you, you know what to do

Your posts don't bore me per se but I do find it a tad pathetic that whenever there is even a sniff of a hint of any positive news for Brexit you cannot resist stepping in to attempt to discredit or revise that snippet of news to suit your own preferences. An alternative viewpoint is of course fine but trying to re-write the facts is … well … boring.

My take was that Boris seemed ( as seen on live TV ) to make personal progress with his German counterpart, that they displayed a mutual respect and that Boris has been awarded a green flag to attempt to come up with a solution that the Germans can support …. rather than a simple " p*ss off Herr Bojo ".

Whereas I find it pathetic that you ( that’s a collective you) twist everything to suit your narrative.

Nothing much has changed after these meetings.

As I’ve been saying for weeks ( and shouted down by the usual suspects) Johnson’s hosts treated him with curtesy and have indicated that they are willing to listen to any new suggestions he might have regarding the backstop.

However, now that it suits you, you’ve decided that it’s progress and have forgotten /ignored (latter more likely) what I’ve been saying.

What did change is that Johnson actually said it is up to U.K. to find new solutions ( yes he did) and he erroneously thought that Merkel was setting him some sort of 30 day challenge to do this.

So now we wait for him to meet the challenge he set up for himself.

A new solution by 21st September.

I do believe that you are still missing the point of Johnson's visit Gill.

It was all about engaging, looking like he's making the effort to find a solution, full well in the knowledge that the EU are not for budging.
Not in 30 days, not in 30 months.
He can never come up with any proposal that the EU will find acceptable, except the one on the table, that Parliament won't approve.

So, we leave without a withdrawal agreement on the 31st October.
I don't believe this to be a bluff. I think he's 100% serious.

He can then shrug his shoulders and say, I did the best I could but the EU wouldn't move on it.
He cannot take that previous proposal back to Parliament for a fourth time, because it would be voted down for a fourth time.

Even you agreed it was a stinker of a deal, did you not.

So, by default and with no agreement possible, the UK leaves the EU on the given date.

You can't win them all.

What else would you suggest could be done ?

[Gill W]

It's a funny old world when a self confessed Tory voter criticises a Tory PM and I as a Labour voter thinks he did an OK job.

As you know (because I have told you before) I voted for the Conservative candidate last time, on the basis he was active in the local community. if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have voted for anybody at the last election.

I find it bizarre that you would think this would preclude me from criticising the PM if I think he's doing a bad job.

I'm not a party political person - I vote for who I feel will best respresent me. I've voted Labour in the past, and I may do again. I may also vote Lib Dem or Green. I will decide at the next election.

You claim to be a leftie, but you are on the same side as the far right when it comes to Brexit.

It is indeed a funny old world.

I would like to think that you are joking about Johnson doing an ok job during his meeting with Merkel. But I know you aren't.

You clearly think that Brexit is the domain of the far right.
Is Corbyn far right?
Is Len Mclusky far right.
Are virtually every every trade union in the UK far right?
Am I far right?
Are literally millions of Labour voters far right?

Square that circle?

Once again wild extrapolations from the man that only deals with facts.

I wasn’t saying any such thing.

However, if you want to talk geometry, the horseshoe theory says that the far right and the far left have much in common and nearly meet up

[Manoverboard]

…. Nothing much has changed after these meetings.

As I’ve been saying for weeks ( and shouted down by the usual suspects) Johnson’s hosts treated him with curtesy and have indicated that they are willing to listen to any new suggestions he might have regarding the backstop.

However, now that it suits you, you’ve decided that it’s progress and have forgotten /ignored (latter more likely) what I’ve been saying.
……………

It is progress … what has changed is that the powerhouse of the EU are now actually ' listening ' to Boris. With TM and DC they simply played lip service. The eleventh hour is getting ever closer.

We are also nearing the time when you can pop your EU flag into the ' All our Yesterdays ' cupboard.

[screwy]

Only one person in an echo chamber here Gill.Your the only one in denial.

[towny44]

If my posts bore you, you know what to do

Your posts don't bore me per se but I do find it a tad pathetic that whenever there is even a sniff of a hint of any positive news for Brexit you cannot resist stepping in to attempt to discredit or revise that snippet of news to suit your own preferences. An alternative viewpoint is of course fine but trying to re-write the facts is … well … boring.

My take was that Boris seemed ( as seen on live TV ) to make personal progress with his German counterpart, that they displayed a mutual respect and that Boris has been awarded a green flag to attempt to come up with a solution that the Germans can support …. rather than a simple " p*ss off Herr Bojo ".

Whereas I find it pathetic that you ( that’s a collective you) twist everything to suit your narrative.

Nothing much has changed after these meetings.

As I’ve been saying for weeks ( and shouted down by the usual suspects) Johnson’s hosts treated him with curtesy and have indicated that they are willing to listen to any new suggestions he might have regarding the backstop.

However, now that it suits you, you’ve decided that it’s progress and have forgotten /ignored (latter more likely) what I’ve been saying.

What did change is that Johnson actually said it is up to U.K. to find new solutions ( yes he did) and he erroneously thought that Merkel was setting him some sort of 30 day challenge to do this.

So now we wait for him to meet the challenge he set up for himself.

A new solution by 21st September.

Gill, Goebbels made Hitler sound reasonable! Unfortunately 99% of the UK media are strong remainers, so we never get an unbiased report on TV news.

[Quizzical Bob]

Only one person in an echo chamber here Gill.Your the only one in denial.

Not true. Gill has my full support but I don't know why she bothers.

I have given up trying to reason with people whose minds are blinkered and closed.

Bye!

[Mervyn and Trish]

Only one person in an echo chamber here Gill.Your the only one in denial.

Not true. Gill has my full support but I don't know why she bothers.

I have given up trying to reason with people whose minds are blinkered and closed.

Bye!

Surely you simply mean disagree with your view QBob? There's blinkered and closed on both sides.

[Gill W]

I do believe that you are still missing the point of Johnson's visit Gill.

It was all about engaging, looking like he's making the effort to find a solution, full well in the knowledge that the EU are not for budging.
Not in 30 days, not in 30 months.
He can never come up with any proposal that the EU will find acceptable, except the one on the table, that Parliament won't approve.

So, we leave without a withdrawal agreement on the 31st October.
I don't believe this to be a bluff. I think he's 100% serious.

He can then shrug his shoulders and say, I did the best I could but the EU wouldn't move on it.
He cannot take that previous proposal back to Parliament for a fourth time, because it would be voted down for a fourth time.

Even you agreed it was a stinker of a deal, did you not.

So, by default and with no agreement possible, the UK leaves the EU on the given date.

You can't win them all.

What else would you suggest could be done ?

I don't think I'm missing any point.

He will never come up with any new proposal, because he has no ideas.

I think everyone knows that, apart from one or two people on this forum who will claim he's still playing his cards close to his chest.

However, he's been trying to push the blame on to the EU - Merkel knew this. She has been very clever, and gave him a bit of rope which he grasped, and will now 'hang' himself with it. He has invented a challenge which she didn't set and will use endeavour and ooomph ( or whatever the latest bluster is) to find a solution within 30 days. He also stated that it's up to the UK to find a new solution.

Therefore, when he fails to present something new by 21st September, it can't be the EU to blame, it won't be them who have failed to do what they said they would do.

It should be noted, that if he DID have a new idea that worked, the backstop would no longer be an issue, because it would never be needed. The 'alternative arrangement' would be in place, so the backstop would never come into force.

What else could be done?

Revoke article 50.

Brexit has paralysed the country for 3 years, and even if we leave the EU without a deal, it doesn't just end on 31st October it'll go on until Judgement Day.

I know you will bleat about anti democrats. I accepted the result of the ADVISORY referendum, but then I learnt it was won on lies and cheating. I now firmly believe that any Brexit will damage the country based on all the reports I have seen. There's also loads of things that we haven't seen, but, if the Government has issued gagging orders, I'm guessing its nothing good.

Based on all that, Brexit is not in the best interest of the UK and its people, and believe it should be stopped.

In April, after the delay was announced, there was a huge sigh of relief and everyone seemed a lot happier that they didn't have to keep thinking about it and talking about it.

If Brexit was stopped, the majority of the population would be either relieved or delighted that the nightmare was over and they could get on with their lives.

I realise you don't feel the same way, but I want what I believe is the best outcome for the country.

[Gill W]

…. Nothing much has changed after these meetings.

As I’ve been saying for weeks ( and shouted down by the usual suspects) Johnson’s hosts treated him with curtesy and have indicated that they are willing to listen to any new suggestions he might have regarding the backstop.

However, now that it suits you, you’ve decided that it’s progress and have forgotten /ignored (latter more likely) what I’ve been saying.
……………

It is progress … what has changed is that the powerhouse of the EU are now actually ' listening ' to Boris. With TM and DC they simply played lip service. The eleventh hour is getting ever closer.

We are also nearing the time when you can pop your EU flag into the ' All our Yesterdays ' cupboard.

I've never had a EU flag.

Prior to Brexit, I barely thought about the EU

'Listening' to Boris. They are being polite. They know he hasn't got an idea his head.

I think you are deluding yourself about the 11th hour, but if it makes you feel more comfortable, why not. You'll have to wake up and smell the coffee one day

[Gill W]

Only one person in an echo chamber here Gill.Your the only one in denial.

But I'm not in an echo chamber. I'm in here with you and several others who think differently.

That is the very definition of not being in an echo chamber.

[Gill W]

Only one person in an echo chamber here Gill.Your the only one in denial.

Not true. Gill has my full support but I don't know why she bothers.

I have given up trying to reason with people whose minds are blinkered and closed.

Bye!

Thank you Bob.

I've two reasons for bothering.

1) I've been following this for so long, I might as well see how it pans out.

2) If I spend any time away from the forum they start 'bantering' about me behind my back. Earlier this year I had some time away from the forum and then went on holiday. When I came back, I found they had been having great fun, suggesting that I was either married to Jack Staff or actually was Jack Staff. Banter is only banter when everybody is enjoying it. Banter behind someone else's back is something else entirely.

I hope we see you again Bob, but I really understand why you no longer wish to engage.

[Gill W]

Only one person in an echo chamber here Gill.Your the only one in denial.

Not true. Gill has my full support but I don't know why she bothers.

I have given up trying to reason with people whose minds are blinkered and closed.

Bye!

Surely you simply mean disagree with your view QBob? There's blinkered and closed on both sides.

For me, what has happened is more than simple disagreement with views.

I'm not going to say more

[Gill W]

Gill, Goebbels made Hitler sound reasonable! Unfortunately 99% of the UK media are strong remainers, so we never get an unbiased report on TV news.

I don't think we need to bring Nazis into the conversation - I think that's a line we shouldn't cross.

Many people feel what is happening in this country has parallels with 1930's Germany, and I don't think anybody would like it if I expounded on that.

Best to leave it there.



What we get from the mainstream media is inaccurate reporting.

[Manoverboard]

…. Nothing much has changed after these meetings.

As I’ve been saying for weeks ( and shouted down by the usual suspects) Johnson’s hosts treated him with curtesy and have indicated that they are willing to listen to any new suggestions he might have regarding the backstop.

However, now that it suits you, you’ve decided that it’s progress and have forgotten /ignored (latter more likely) what I’ve been saying.
……………

It is progress … what has changed is that the powerhouse of the EU are now actually ' listening ' to Boris. With TM and DC they simply played lip service. The eleventh hour is getting ever closer.

We are also nearing the time when you can pop your EU flag into the ' All our Yesterdays ' cupboard.

I've never had a EU flag.

Prior to Brexit, I barely thought about the EU

'Listening' to Boris. They are being polite. They know he hasn't got an idea his head.

I think you are deluding yourself about the 11th hour, but if it makes you feel more comfortable, why not. You'll have to wake up and smell the coffee one day

Boris with or without ideas is a threat to them because he has the power to leave the EU without a deal … ' that ' is why they listen

[towny44]

Gill, Goebbels made Hitler sound reasonable! Unfortunately 99% of the UK media are strong remainers, so we never get an unbiased report on TV news.

I don't think we need to bring Nazis into the conversation - I think that's a line we shouldn't cross.

Many people feel what is happening in this country has parallels with 1930's Germany, and I don't think anybody would like it if I expounded on that.

Best to leave it there.



What we get from the mainstream media is inaccurate reporting.

Gill, I was merely pointing out how the presentation of information can affect how its perceived, nothing was in my mind about Naziism. But I think your reaction says far more about your extreme views than any connection that true leavers have to facism.

[barney]

South Korean trade deal signed today.
Yep, the one that folks said couldn't be done in advance of leaving. Canada and Japan to follow very shortly then New Zealand and Australia

[Manoverboard]

… and then the good ol US of A

[oldbluefox]

South Korean trade deal signed today.
Yep, the one that folks said couldn't be done in advance of leaving. Canada and Japan to follow very shortly then New Zealand and Australia

Are these the very same deals the experts told us would take years to sort out or were they just referring to deals with the EU?

[Mervyn and Trish]

Not true. Gill has my full support but I don't know why she bothers.

I have given up trying to reason with people whose minds are blinkered and closed.

Bye!

Surely you simply mean disagree with your view QBob? There's blinkered and closed on both sides.

For me, what has happened is more than simple disagreement with views.

I'm not going to say more

It started as a simple vote Gill, and we all had a choice and we disagreed on that choice.

Since then it has been Remainers who've challenged the result. We've had everything from the assumption that those who couldn't be bothered to vote wanted to remain, through to QBob's latest post suggesting those who disagree with him have minds which are blinkered and closed. We've been accused of being thick. Or xenophobic. Or racist. It's they who have raised the temperature. And the politicians who have resisted implementing the result who have brought democracy into disrepute. As a leaver I am none of the above. I listened. I considered. I reached a different conclusion to you and QBob and Jack. And I continue to listen and consider and have heard nothing to make me change my mind.

[Gill W]

Gill, Goebbels made Hitler sound reasonable! Unfortunately 99% of the UK media are strong remainers, so we never get an unbiased report on TV news.

I don't think we need to bring Nazis into the conversation - I think that's a line we shouldn't cross.

Many people feel what is happening in this country has parallels with 1930's Germany, and I don't think anybody would like it if I expounded on that.

Best to leave it there.



What we get from the mainstream media is inaccurate reporting.

Gill, I was merely pointing out how the presentation of information can affect how its perceived, nothing was in my mind about Naziism. But I think your reaction says far more about your extreme views than any connection that true leavers have to facism.

I do not have extreme views.

If I said something like that to you, you’d go loopy.

I’m seriously unimpressed with your comment - this is an illustration of what I meant when I said to Mervyn that what has happened on this forum goes way beyond mere differing views

[Mervyn and Trish]

Gill, I was merely pointing out how the presentation of information can affect how its perceived, nothing was in my mind about Naziism. But I think your reaction says far more about your extreme views than any connection that true leavers have to facism.

I do not have extreme views.

If I said something like that to you, you’d go loopy.

I’m seriously unimpressed with your comment - this is an illustration of what I meant when I said to Mervyn that what has happened on this forum goes way beyond mere differing views

I can understand people on both sides being hurt by comments on this forum, but they are no different to what is widely heard around the country and as I said in my last post are the result on of one thing - Remainers refusing to accept the result of the referendum and suggesting for various reasons their vote was more valid than those of Leavers.

[Gill W]

… and then the good ol US of A

Have you ever asked yourself why they wash chicken in chlorine?

[Gill W]

It is progress … what has changed is that the powerhouse of the EU are now actually ' listening ' to Boris. With TM and DC they simply played lip service. The eleventh hour is getting ever closer.

We are also nearing the time when you can pop your EU flag into the ' All our Yesterdays ' cupboard.

I've never had a EU flag.

Prior to Brexit, I barely thought about the EU

'Listening' to Boris. They are being polite. They know he hasn't got an idea his head.

I think you are deluding yourself about the 11th hour, but if it makes you feel more comfortable, why not. You'll have to wake up and smell the coffee one day

Boris with or without ideas is a threat to them because he has the power to leave the EU without a deal … ' that ' is why they listen

As ever, perhaps you need to discuss this with Barney. He’s got a directly opposite view that it’s all for show

[Gill W]

Surely you simply mean disagree with your view QBob? There's blinkered and closed on both sides.

For me, what has happened is more than simple disagreement with views.

I'm not going to say more

It started as a simple vote Gill, and we all had a choice and we disagreed on that choice.

Since then it has been Remainers who've challenged the result. We've had everything from the assumption that those who couldn't be bothered to vote wanted to remain, through to QBob's latest post suggesting those who disagree with him have minds which are blinkered and closed. We've been accused of being thick. Or xenophobic. Or racist. It's they who have raised the temperature. And the politicians who have resisted implementing the result who have brought democracy into disrepute. As a leaver I am none of the above. I listened. I considered. I reached a different conclusion to you and QBob and Jack. And I continue to listen and consider and have heard nothing to make me change my mind.

I don’t think I’ve ever called anyone thick, xenophobic or racist on this forum.

However, I have personally been called things on this forum that I had taken exception too. I’m not going to repeat it, because it’ll only inflame the situation.

I realised that, if I was to remain a member of this forum i’d have to draw a line and move on.

I understand where QB is coming from - it can be very frustrating when you are in a minority and you are up against a wall of people decrying what you are saying, and often the attitude that is being displayed from the majority is quite .... Er .... challenging.

Sometimes you have to just walk away, as it is too much to deal with. I did that myself the other week, because I posted a load of sarky replies in frustration. I’m not proud of that, but I can admit to it.

You seem to be saying it’s Remainders who have raised the temperature. As there are only a few Remainers left on here, and I personally hold back a lot of what I could say, I must say that’s another thing I’m not very impressed with today.

[Gill W]

Gill, I was merely pointing out how the presentation of information can affect how its perceived, nothing was in my mind about Naziism. But I think your reaction says far more about your extreme views than any connection that true leavers have to facism.

I do not have extreme views.

If I said something like that to you, you’d go loopy.

I’m seriously unimpressed with your comment - this is an illustration of what I meant when I said to Mervyn that what has happened on this forum goes way beyond mere differing views

I can understand people on both sides being hurt by comments on this forum, but they are no different to what is widely heard around the country and as I said in my last post are the result on of one thing - Remainers refusing to accept the result of the referendum and suggesting for various reasons their vote was more valid than those of Leavers.

As I said earlier today, I accepted the result of the referendum. However, as time went by I realised that it had been won on lies and illegal actions.

If it wasn’t merely an advisory referendum, it is likely that it would have been declared invalid.

However, the most important point is that we are not the whole country, we are a small forum and I’ve said many times before that we should have been able to keep it amicable.

I now know this is impossible - in order to remain a member of this forum I have had to accept this rather unpleasant fact.