Current Affairs

[Kendhni]

Regarding the exit strategy, it is like asking A C M Dowding, at the worst moment of the air battle, when the RAF are struggling to protect airfields, why aren't you publishing your strategy for fighter sweeps across Europe.

The significant difference is that, in this case, the enemy does not have any capacity to understand. So determining and publishing a strategy would make zero to no difference. Compared to other governments, our own has been slow to react and has not showered itself in glory - that has cost lives.

[Kendhni]

Anyone’s remember the Leave campaign promise to spend £350 million a week on the NHS.
This government need to be really careful with their words.
They are often twisted to suit a particular agenda

Barney, I do indeed, I also remember the made up story about Johnson making toy buses which was nothing more than an attempt to manipulate the search engines so that when people searched for Boris and bus they would see the buffoons antics with toy buses. Fortunately the search engines were wise to this.

Sadly this unambiguous poster is the one that most brexiteers conveniently forget about.

Ironically, we may well be giving the NHS an extra £350million per week to handle this crisis, the severity of which is partly down to governmental inaction in the early days (although I am sure Johnson/Cummings will find a way of spinning that).

[towny44]

There is an alarming article in the Mail this morning from a US doctor who thinks ventilators are doing more harm than good, and that the recovery rate from going on a ventilator is only 20%. He thinks oxygen enriched CPAP machines will produce a much better outcome.

[Kendhni]

There is an alarming article in the Mail this morning from a US doctor who thinks ventilators are doing more harm than good, and that the recovery rate from going on a ventilator is only 20%. He thinks oxygen enriched CPAP machines will produce a much better outcome.

I may be wrong but I thought CPAP was the first step and then the ventilators were used as a last resort (generally require sedation).

It is good to see that several companies are already going to trial with treatments and vaccinations - let's hope they work.

[Mervyn and Trish]

There is an alarming article in the Mail this morning from a US doctor who thinks ventilators are doing more harm than good, and that the recovery rate from going on a ventilator is only 20%. He thinks oxygen enriched CPAP machines will produce a much better outcome.

Sounds like the usual formula. Ask twenty doctors the same question and publish the most sensational answer. It's the same with the experts they keep rolling out. Anyone they can find who disagrees with the current approach.

I'm particularly suspicious of US doctors. I recall a time when I worked in communications in the NHS and the local paper rang up about a patient whose relatives had been told by our doctors his condition was terminal and inoperable. They'd found a US doctor who'd said he could operate for $50,000. Having consulted our doctors I explained that inoperable didn't mean you couldn't operate, but that an operation would provide no benefit. Off the record I told him that an operation might give the patient an extra six weeks, which he would spend in intensive care post op, and then sadly die $50,000 poorer. Which is exactly what happened. But did the paper publish the outcome? Of course not.

[Mervyn and Trish]

I'm not going to be sucked back into the political debate about how well or not the government is doing. That's something we are not going to agree on.

But I've been doing a little research on the power of hindsight by looking back over our posts to see what we were saying early in this crisis, including those who now say the government has been too slow to act. We've had one suggestion they should have locked down as early as three weeks before they did, so I've looked back to the beginning of March to see if any of us were urging the government to act to act more strongly, or if we were reporting the opposition were doing so. I'm not naming any names, other than politicians, but the short answer is no.

On 2nd March we were discussing the price of Carnival shares and which cars we would buy when the price rebounded.

On 11th March Corbyn was slagging off the budget, not urging faster action on Covid.

We were discussing how we'd pass the time after voluntary social distancing for older people was encouraged. Despite that some were still going away for the weekend. We were comparing notes on on-line shopping and toilet rolls before we moved on to the condom shortage.

On 19th March Labour was too busy with its leadership race and still offering no ideas on Covid.

We discussed how we could help one another, if the lockdown got worse. Not saying it should.

People in general were moaning about their holidays being cancelled. Not demanding a lockdown now.

On 27th March Labour was not saying lockdown was too late or too slow, just arguing about the money.

In early April we were impressed by Matt Hancock and we'd moved on to criticising the media for being negative.

It is not until 3rd April that any of us suggested the government had been slow.

And significantly not one of us suggested before the current lockdown came that it should happen. Not one of us suggested cancelling major events back then before they had happened and before the government had done so.

Of course we're not medical or scientific experts, unlike the team who have been advising the government. Well most of us aren't. But we are experts in hindsight!

[Manoverboard]

I'm not going to be ....

Was your research as thorough as it should have been ?

You obviously trawled through this Topic but dare I mention that there are at least two other related Topics that could contain further evidence.

[Mervyn and Trish]

I trawled all of them. This and the others which mention Covid. But as I say I'm not out to start a new row. Merely to indicate the power of hindsight.

[Manoverboard]

I trawled all of them. This and the others which mention Covid. But as I say I'm not out to start a new row. Merely to indicate the power of hindsight.

Indeed not and forgive me for even thinking that you may have missed one of the Topics.

Actually ... I had thought that QB raised the question of event closure but clearly I was wrong about that as well.

[Mervyn and Trish]

I trawled all of them. This and the others which mention Covid. But as I say I'm not out to start a new row. Merely to indicate the power of hindsight.

Indeed not and forgive me for even thinking that you may have missed one of the Topics.

Actually ... I had thought that QB raised the question of event closure but clearly I was wrong about that as well.

If indeed he did then I have missed that for which I apologise in advance if that is the case, but the only reference I have found is the after the event one.

[screwy]

I am now almost 69 yr old, throughout my working life I have been a Soldier,Trucker and Prison Officer. I left school with no qualifications. There will be many on here who are undoubtedly cleverer,smarter or whatever you want to call it, I know my limitations. Throughout this crisis I have always believed that the Government will always do the right thing being lead by the Science, now these people really are clever.! So why are there people on here who I doubt have nowhere near the qualifications as these people seem to think they know better and the govt and advisors are incompetent. You know who you are.!

[Mervyn and Trish]

What I would like would be those who criticise the government after the event to say now what they believe should happen in the coming weeks and, more importantly, how it should be achieved. So yes we need tests and PPE and a vaccine. But given the world shortages of the first two and the work needed for the second let's be realistic. What would be your exit strategy? And the answer is I don't know, which would be my answer, let's not knock them later if they don't do what we want. I know they are the government but they are also fallible humans who had no more knowledge of this virus three months ago than the rest of us.

[Frank Manning]

It's semantics. We are, where we are. People are dying, NHS Doctors and nurses are becoming exhausted. I have been watching our videos of previous cruises in happier times, and thinking how selfish of me to wonder if we shall ever see such good times again.

[Gill W]

It's semantics. We are, where we are. People are dying, NHS Doctors and nurses are becoming exhausted. I have been watching our videos of previous cruises in happier times, and thinking how selfish of me to wonder if we shall ever see such good times again.

I agree Frank.

Another 888 reported dead today. Another 888 grieving families. Nearly 15500 in total, but that's probably the tip of the iceberg.

Why on earth are we tearing chunks out of each other with all that going on .

It makes me so sad.

[Frank Manning]

Anyone’s remember the Leave campaign promise to spend £350 million a week on the NHS.
This government need to be really careful with their words.
They are often twisted to suit a particular agenda

Barney, I do indeed, I also remember the made up story about Johnson making toy buses which was nothing more than an attempt to manipulate

Sadly this unambiguous poster is the one that most brexiteers conveniently forget about.

Ken. You have misquoted me there. Those were the words of another person, which I quoted. They were not mine, but someone else picked me up for It, and rather grumpily informed me that the leave campaign did not commit to £350 for the NHS. So I am grateful for your photo which even he cannot deny.

Brexit is over as far as I am concerned. Move on. I am enjoying looking at Sue in my video now and thinking how lucky I am. Much more important than Brexit or who said what about who, or what.

[Kendhni]

Anyone’s remember the Leave campaign promise to spend £350 million a week on the NHS.
This government need to be really careful with their words.
They are often twisted to suit a particular agenda

Barney, I do indeed, I also remember the made up story about Johnson making toy buses which was nothing more than an attempt to manipulate

Sadly this unambiguous poster is the one that most brexiteers conveniently forget about.

Ken. You have misquoted me there. Those were the words of another person, which I quoted. They were not mine, but someone else picked me up for It, and rather grumpily informed me that the leave campaign did not commit to £350 for the NHS. So I am grateful for your photo which even he cannot deny.

Brexit is over as far as I am concerned. Move on. I am enjoying looking at Sue in my video now and thinking how lucky I am. Much more important than Brexit or who said what about who, or what.

I blame the quote system

[Kendhni]

I'm not going to be sucked back into the political debate about how well or not the government is doing. That's something we are not going to agree on.

But I've been doing a little research on the power of hindsight by looking back over our posts to see what we were saying early in this crisis, including those who now say the government has been too slow to act. We've had one suggestion they should have locked down as early as three weeks before they did, so I've looked back to the beginning of March to see if any of us were urging the government to act to act more strongly, or if we were reporting the opposition were doing so. I'm not naming any names, other than politicians, but the short answer is no.

On 2nd March we were discussing the price of Carnival shares and which cars we would buy when the price rebounded.

On 11th March Corbyn was slagging off the budget, not urging faster action on Covid.

We were discussing how we'd pass the time after voluntary social distancing for older people was encouraged. Despite that some were still going away for the weekend. We were comparing notes on on-line shopping and toilet rolls before we moved on to the condom shortage.

On 19th March Labour was too busy with its leadership race and still offering no ideas on Covid.

We discussed how we could help one another, if the lockdown got worse. Not saying it should.

People in general were moaning about their holidays being cancelled. Not demanding a lockdown now.

On 27th March Labour was not saying lockdown was too late or too slow, just arguing about the money.

In early April we were impressed by Matt Hancock and we'd moved on to criticising the media for being negative.

It is not until 3rd April that any of us suggested the government had been slow.

And significantly not one of us suggested before the current lockdown came that it should happen. Not one of us suggested cancelling major events back then before they had happened and before the government had done so.

Of course we're not medical or scientific experts, unlike the team who have been advising the government. Well most of us aren't. But we are experts in hindsight!

Very selective recounting there. Before we went on holiday we had been discussing this very thing in work. It was especially pertinent because I had already organised several flights to/from America. In fact on 6th March I got an email telling me that my two flights for the end of March and in April had been cancelled by AA. So America was starting the lockdown - and there was a headline that night on the news questioning when our government would follow suit. My brother had also started briefing his staff about the possibility of having to close shop.

I also had a doctors appointment on 26th Feb and asked the doctor about this coronavirus thing. He was very damning of the government and the lack of advice they were providing to the medical profession, including a total lack of PPE equipment that he knew he would need. He even made a comment that the government should lockdown immediately.

When we left for holiday on 6th of March the main headline was about panic buying of hand sanitiser. By 7th March there was talk about panic buying of toilet rolls in the shops with cries for the government to do something to stop it. Also on the 7th March I had a long conversation with the chap sat beside me on the plane to Barbados about whether or not Johnson should respond to the calls to go into lockdown.

I had noticed that Gatwick was much emptier than normal with many other countries having cancelled their flights. During the cruise the onboard paper mentioned several times that Johnson was refusing a lockdown, despite other countries doing so - even the Caribbean islands had started to go into lockdown. On the cruise one of the topics of discussion, including jokes from one of the comedians, was wondering when Johnson was going to do something. Maybe this board was just a bit slow to pick up on the news?

So I am very unimpressed with the speed of reaction from the government ... not hindsight, the advice was there ... they delayed ... they cost lives. They now seem to be getting their act together (apart from Priti Patel who has managed to make Diane Abott look intelligent). I am more impressed that they managed to create nightingale hospitals in the timescale they have and that they are not rushing out of lockdown, I hope that will remain the case until we see how other countries are coping.

I also wish the government would get its act together in relation to summer holidays - they are currently sending out very mixed messages. We have one holiday due payable in a few days time. I can cancel and lose the deposit, I can pay it and hopefully get the money back if it gets cancelled. I talked to the travel company but they claim that they have no guidance from the Foreign Office - so they remain grounded until 17th June at this point with no idea of what happens after that. At least AA is much clearer.

Finally, there is also a fantastic segment of society including construction workers, farmers, delivery drivers, utility workers, shop workers, those that keep the mobile phone system up, those that manage the servers delivering the internet facilities (such as zoom, facebook, twitter, skype, gaming sites, netflix etc. etc) and many many others that currently seem to be forgotten - I applaud them all.

[oldbluefox]

Anyone’s remember the Leave campaign promise to spend £350 million a week on the NHS.
This government need to be really careful with their words.
They are often twisted to suit a particular agenda

but if one side or the other drives around in an attention seeking bus with a big vote winning slogan on the side, people have a reasonable expectation that when that side wins it will be delivered.

Just to correct you. The slogan on the side of the bus did not say £350 million a week on the NHS. It actually said 'we send the EU £350 million a week, let's fund our NHS instead'. Nowhere does it say £350 million a week to the NHS. That was just the Remain campaign twisting the facts.
Brexit bus.jpg

Now we've cleared that one up let's get back to CV19.

Just to clarify Ken. I commented on the slogan on the side of the bus which was being mentioned and which you seem to have edited out. As far as I am concerned the Brexit debate is finished so I will not be responding further. On this I agree with Frank and it's time to move on.
AS I said in my final comment that day "Now we've cleared that one up let's get back to CV19".

[Mervyn and Trish]

Very selective recounting there.

Yes it is. As I said in my post I was going back on posts on this forum, not a wider survey, principally to see what we were saying then. If you can point me to a single post back then offering any positive advice from anyone now attacking the government for tardiness with the benefit of hindsight that would be great. And as I said I'm not commenting further on what the government has or hasn't done. Merely examining the perfect science of hindsight.

[david63]

I am more impressed that they managed to create nightingale hospitals in the timescale they have

Nightingale Hospitals are nothing to do, directly, with the Government nor the NHS - they are part of our military contingency planning and were set up and installed by the military. What does impress me though is the amount of equipment that we have in reserve for such contingencies.

[Gill W]

Very selective recounting there.

Yes it is. As I said in my post I was going back on posts on this forum, not a wider survey, principally to see what we were saying then. If you can point me to a single post back then offering any positive advice from anyone now attacking the government for tardiness with the benefit of hindsight that would be great. And as I said I'm not commenting further on what the government has or hasn't done. Merely examining the perfect science of hindsight.

For me, it was the weekend of 7th March, where my mindset switched.

Up until that point, I was dubious about the idea of going on my cruise due on 29th March, but had thought that we would go, if the cruise was still proceeding,

But on 7th March, I switched to ‘I’m not going on that cruise even if I lose the thousands of pounds that I’ve paid.

During that following week, I was horrified that Cheltenham went ahead, all those pop concerts and the Liverpool / Athletico Madrid match going ahead, with all those people flying in from Spain.

I went away for the weekend of 13th - 16th March and we kept ourselves as socially distant as possible - but I was surprised We hadn’t been locked down by then. We got back on 16th March, and by that time, many businesses were taking matters into their own hands and shutting down. Yet we still didn’t get a proper lockdown for another week.

I didn’t post about what I was thinking, as I felt that it wouldn’t get a good reaction, as nobody else appeared to be on the the same page as me.

Just because I didn’t post, doesn’t mean I wasn’t thinking that we locked down later than we should have done.

[screwy]

According to Ken Pritt Patel makes Diane Abbott look intelligent.? Sorry,no one is capable of that.!

[screwy]

The gift of Foresight/ Hindsight is a remarkable gift...

[Ray B]

The gift of Foresight/ Hindsight is a remarkable gift...

We went for the last four weeks to the Carib on Azura. Having seen the pictures of empty shelves in Italy we decided to do big shops of Tins, pasta, flour, UHT milk and other consumables, as after a month, zwhat would be left on the shelves here.
Glad I did after seeing the situation on our return after only two weeks, cruise was cut short.
As you say, Foresight/Hindsight is a remarkable gift. Over 70 years we have seen most of it and know what people are like in a panic.

[oldbluefox]

On the government's recommendation we went into lockdown on 14th March. The mistake the government made was in not making it compulsory. In fact I would have made it more stringent than it is. There are too many people who are not taking it seriously or simply ignoring it. For so long as people think it does not apply to them the figures will continue to rise and lockdown will last longer. Time to ignore the snowflakes and toughen up. And I agree the sporting events and concerts should never have gone ahead and travel to and from the country should have been cancelled.
In hindsight they should have .................................